Comic W. Kamau Bell On Standing Tall And Finding Humor In America's Racism

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, comic W. Kamau Bell, is taking his political and social satire to CNN, where he's hosting a new docuseries called "United Shades Of America." It premieres Sunday, April 24, at 10 p.m. Eastern. He describes himself as having made a living finding humor in the parts of America he does not understand. The original premise of the series was a black guy goes places he shouldn't or you wouldn't expect him to go. That original concept is fulfilled in the first episode, in which he talks with several leaders of the Ku Klux Klan and witnesses a cross-burning. Subsequent episodes take him to San Quentin Prison; Camden, N.J., which is testing out a new approach to policing; and Florida, where he spends time at Daytona Beach during spring break and a gated retirement community. Bell formerly hosted a series of political satire called "Totally Biased," which was on the FX and FXX networks. It boosted his profile but didn't quite make him famous, which is perhaps why his new Showtime special is called "Semi-Prominent Negro." The Showtime special premieres Friday, April 29. A lot of the special is about his family. His wife is white, they have two daughters. Here's a clip.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SEMI-PROMINENT NEGRO")

W. KAMAU BELL: So my wife is the one who realized that she was going to have to, like, think about some things she hadn't thought about thinking about when she had our daughter. She was the one who was like - she had pictured having kids, and she wanted daughters, but she didn't have picture having black daughters because she wasn't that white lady. Let's be clear about that. I'm not married to that white lady. I just got to get a - no. That's all the black women in the audience who are like, what kind of white lady? I'm not - no.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: (Laughter) I hate my parents - I don't have that one. I don't have that one.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: But she realized, like, there was things about having a black daughter that she was going to have to pay attention to and think about before our daughter was born. And it just occurred to her - one of the things that occurred to her one night when she was still pregnant with our daughter, she just woke up in a cold sweat. She was like, oh my God, what am I going to do about her hair? Every black woman knows what I'm talking about here because she realized she didn't know how to do black people hair. And she didn't want to be that white parent with a black kid who just sends them out into the street with [expletive] hair and hopes they run into an angry black woman on the way to church - damnit, child, come here, child. [Expletive] I don't have my rubber bands or bobby pins.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: Get back over there to your mama. Bring that child here every day at 8:30 in the morning. This neighborhood is changing too fast. I got six kids a day, I've got to do their hair - gentrification.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: So she didn't want to be that [expletive] parent. So my wife did what she does. She's Ph.D. and an MFA, so she did what she does - she studied it. Yeah, my wife's got a Ph.D. in critical dance studies and an MFA in experimental dance choreography, which means one thing - we're going to be rich.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: That's W. Kamau Bell from his Showtime special "Semi-Prominent Negro." Kamau, it's great to have you back on the show.

BELL: Thank you for having me back. It's a real honor to be here. Last time, I felt like I was surprised to be on your show. But this time I was able study a little more.

GROSS: (Laughter) So I love the title of the Showtime thing - "Semi-Prominent Negro." That's a funny status to give yourself. Is that how you felt after you had an FX weekly comedy series and then it was canceled?

BELL: Yeah, it was FX and then FXX weekly and then FXX nothing. So yeah, I mean, I still feel like I'm a semi-prominent Negro. I think I had to - I think I lost some of it when the show was canceled, and I'm sort of climbing back into semi-prominent Negro status.

GROSS: Well, let's talk about your new CNN series. How did you come up with the idea of going to places that make you uncomfortable - places that you feel that you probably don't belong?

BELL: I've always liked those travel shows. I've always been a fan. It's funny, now those shows are sort of all - a lot of them are at CNN. I've always been a fan of Bourdain from back in the day and Mike Rowe and Morgan Spurlock and that sort of, like, new style of journalism. Like, not really journalism, like, a person with a big personality who's got curiosity and questions - I've always been a fan of that. And I always thought if I had a show like that, you basically would replace food with racism (laughter).

GROSS: (Laughter).

BELL: You know, you would take the - you know, instead of, like, sampling the food I would sample the racism or the culture. So I've always been a fan of that. And so when "Totally Biased" was canceled, there was a period where I thought my career was over. But then I got these meetings at different networks and news networks, and they had - somebody had pitched them a show at that point called "Black Man, White America" where a comedian - a black comedian - would travel around to white places. And I was like, well, what do you do after the fourth episode? You know - we're back at the country club. And so I was like, if I did that show, I'd want to travel around to all sorts of different places that I was either afraid to go or you wouldn't expect me to go. I sort of put that spin on it, and luckily the production company who pitched to CNN liked that, and they renamed the idea "United Shades Of America," which is a much better title than "Black Man, White America," because this is not the 1990s. And this is where we are now.

GROSS: I wish I could have been in some of the pitch meetings, some of the producers' meetings when you're coming up with ideas of places where you would be very uncomfortable.

BELL: It - you know, it's funny. The very first thing we pitched - the first thing I pitched was the clan. That was the first - like, when we were, like, coming up with ideas, I was like, how about the Ku Klux Klan? And there were lots of ideas on the table. But I just sort of felt like for a pilot, especially 'cause the first episode that we're airing is actually the pilot for the show that we shot, I was like, we have to distinguish ourselves from all the other shows on CNN that are doing some version of this. And if Bourdain goes to the Klan, it's going to be about the (unintelligible) - (laughter) you know, like - which is why he's not going to go 'cause it's not that good. But I just felt like I have to pick a topic and a place that because I'm black, 'cause I'm a black man, that I have a very distinct connection to. That it's not just like here we are at a rodeo, you know - which we'll do the rodeo episode eventually, if we get to season two. But I felt like we can't start there.

GROSS: So did you have any reservations about meeting Klan members?

BELL: Yes, Terry, I did (laughter).

GROSS: Why?

BELL: Well, there's this history - I googled them before I went and was like, this sounds pretty bad. Yeah, I definitely - my curiosity led my fear. I said that to somebody recently that I think I was more curious than I was afraid until I got there. Then the fear was like, hello. Why don't I come into the equation? And I really - the fear sort of crept in. But, yes, I was certainly - my mom was worried, my wife was worried, my dad was worried. Like, they sort of weren't surprised that I would want to do this, but they were also worried about how does this happen?

GROSS: So in the early part of the episode, you're on a dark road - a lonely, isolated country road at night - in your car meeting an Imperial Wizard of the Klan who's meeting you on that road and flashes his lights to let you know that it's him. You each get out of the car, and you're wondering, why did this have to be at night on a dark road?

BELL: Yeah (laughter).

GROSS: So let me ask you, why did it have to be at night on a dark road?

BELL: The Klan is wrapped up in their mythology. And I think they know they're the boogeyman. And so I think they like that side of it. I think he was playing into the side of, like, we have to do this at night. They're also aware that if they're on a bright road wearing those outfits, they're going to attract a lot of unwanted attention. They know those robes are as unpopular as I know those robes are unpopular. So if he's going to do that, I think, once, it's the mythology and, two, it's the, well, I can't walk down the middle of downtown like this on a - 12 in the afternoon.

GROSS: But as long as they have the hood and the robe on, they're happy to be on television.

BELL: They're happy to be on television, but even they know, like, all the Klan's members I met who were dressed like that were on their own property or at night by the side of the road. You know, nobody was like, meet me at a coffee shop in downtown Arkansas...

GROSS: (Laughter) Right.

BELL: ...Or let's get together at the Denny's and talk about this. Like, nobody wanted that.

GROSS: Well, you did meet one Klan leader, he's the head of a Klan party in Arkansas and - in a small town - and he met you in a suit and tie and kind of business attire at a local diner. And you had a chat about his vision of the new Ku Klux Klan.

BELL: Yes.

GROSS: Tell us who he was before we hear a clip of that scene.

BELL: His name is Thomas Robb. And I believe his title's executive director of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

GROSS: OK, so this is Kamau talking to this leader of the Ku Klux Klan in Arkansas.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA")

THOMAS ROBB: The Klan, to me, is just a tool to reach people. I feel that it gives the biggest bang for the buck.

BELL: OK.

ROBB: And that's why I joined the Klan. But my personal belief - OK? - is that black people cannot maintain law and order on their own.

BELL: Really?

ROBB: That's my personal belief.

BELL: And why do you think that is?

ROBB: White people have a inner drive for discipline and law and order.

BELL: All white people?

ROBB: No, not all white people.

BELL: OK (laughter). All right, I'm just...

ROBB: Some are really trash.

BELL: All Right - as long as - OK. All right, as long as we agree with that, yeah.

ROBB: But I sincerely believe that if people of my character and racial integrity were in charge, your communities would be safe again. I'm just - we're different people, you know? And we come from different worlds. And you're happier, I suspect, among your own world.

BELL: I am happier amongst my own people, but they're multiple races and multiple...

ROBB: So you're comfortable with a multiracial society?

BELL: Absolutely, yes.

ROBB: And I'm not, and a lot of people are not. I still have a right to love my people.

GROSS: OK, that's W. Kamau Bell talking to Thomas Robb of the KKK. And it's a clip from Kamau's new CNN serious "United Shades Of America." So you witnessed a cross burning, too.

BELL: Terry, it's called a cross lighting.

GROSS: That's right, they correct you. It's called a cross lighting (laugher).

BELL: Yes.

GROSS: And you learned, like, how they wrap the crosses, how they apply the kerosene, how they get it to burn just so.

BELL: Yeah, the kerosene they call Klansmen cologne 'cause it gets on everything.

GROSS: Yeah, and that's just the weirdest part of the whole episode because, you know, you might be the first black person to witness it and survive.

BELL: That - I was very aware of that and especially as it got to the end when they actually lit the cross on fire and they started to do their, like, ritual where they all encircled it and they started to repeat things. And they had a boom box playing "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes.

GROSS: Is that what it was?

BELL: That's what it was.

GROSS: I was trying to figure out where is this coming from?

BELL: Yeah, people think we put that song in the show. Like - and somebody's like, why would you put that? I was like, we didn't put that in there. (Laugher) Like, they - that's what they do. And so, for me, at that moment when I was sitting there watching the cross burning - and it was also dark. And there's still a - in the back of my mind, I'm like, what if a hundred Klansmen run out of the woods right now and take me? You know, I was very aware that, like, I'm a comedian. I can't help but be a comedian, I can't help but be funny, but I'm also a black man. I can't help but be a black man. And I love being both those things. And I was very aware that in that moment that, like, I don't know - certainly the overwhelming percentage of black people who've been present for those things did not escape alive. And if they did escape, it's 'cause they escaped, not 'cause they said goodbye, all, nice talking to you. And that's what's important to me about this scene and showing why CNN is such a good partner for this 'cause they don't need it to be funny all the time. They know I'm a comedian, but they also hired me because I'm a comedian who has - likes to think big thoughts and ask big questions. Even if I can't figure those big things out, I'm at least investigating those things. So it felt great that I - we didn't have to end the show on a laugh even though it's a show hosted by a comedian.

GROSS: So I kept wondering, like, if you were not meeting Klanspeople with a CNN camera person and with your CNN credentials - 'cause a CNN camera is even more powerful than a viral cell phone thing (laugher).

BELL: No, I - certainly, I've learned. I've held that microphone with the CNN logo on it. And it really - it's like a light saber. People - even people who don't like CNN want to talk to you.

GROSS: Right, so had you not had all the CNN stuff, things would have gone real differently for you meeting the Klan, probably, right?

BELL: It's funny, I think if I had just walked up on their cross burning/lighting, if I just walked out of the woods like, hey, guys, what are you doing? That probably would not have gone too well. But there's black people who live around them. I saw black people in town. So as much as those guys are in the Klan - and also what they say is that we don't hate black people, we just really love white people. Now, there's nothing wrong with really loving white people, it's just what do you do with that love? So my...

GROSS: You hate black people (laughter) with it...

BELL: Well, yeah, that's what some people do.

GROSS: ...And Jews (laughter).

BELL: That's what some - but I'd like to think that loving white people doesn't always lead to hating black people, you know? Just the same way that loving black people as a black person doesn't lead to me hating white people.

GROSS: Now, they did give you a warning that if you did anything that they found offensive, that they think crossed them in some way, that they would have retribution. I found that a little frightening because, I mean, this episode hasn't been shown on CNN yet. I don't know what they might take offense by and probably neither do you. Are you concerned about that?

BELL: Luckily 'cause I live in Berkeley, Calif., they would have to really come a long way (laughter). There is a part of this that it's, like, I don't have any fear walking around that those Klan members are going to come after me. I have more fear for the random incidences of chance coming after me. And weirdly, that guy who threatened me in that thing sent me an email saying he's seen the commercials and he's excited about the show.

GROSS: What did he say?

BELL: He sent me a Facebook message - the same guy who threatened me in that episode sent me a Facebook message basically saying, hey, what's going on, man? Can't wait for the show.

GROSS: (Laugher) Well, that's great. So your wife is white, and one of the Klanspeople who you interviewed tells you that intermarriage is an abomination. And I think he says it says so in the Bible.

BELL: Yes.

GROSS: Yes, so, I mean, how do you just deal with that? How do you listen to that and not want to just, like, walk away? Like, you shake everybody's hand when you're done talking with them (laughter).

BELL: It was really important to me. I was raised by people from the South. And it's really important to me - that was my grandmother - I'm thinking my grandmother - my dad's mom - my grandmother would be mad if I didn't have nice manners, even when I was talking to the Klan. And also, I wanted to show them that I was bigger than this. I wasn't - it's not a "Springer" episode. I'm not going to throw a chair at you. When we're done talking, even that Klansman by the side of the road, I go, drive safely, which I knew - I was like, am I going to say that? Yes, I'm going to say that 'cause that's funny to me. Like, it's not necessarily a laugh-out-loud thing. But I was like, the last thing he's going to hear from this black guy is, like, you know, have a safe drive as you leave this dark country road. And so for me, when he says interracial marriage is an abomination - first of all, there's black people who've told me that. So that's not new news to me that somebody thinks that way. But I can't live that way. And so you saying that reveals more about you than it reveals about me. You know, I can't a take that information in (laugher). Like - it's like, I'm a grown man. Like, I'm not - I've already gone down this interracial marriage path, so you're not going to talk me out of it on the side of this dark country road.

GROSS: So did this change your idea of the roots of racism at all? Seeing people whose brand is racism - like, that's what they've always stood for. And even though there's, like, a new face of the Klan that they're trying to put on, it's about the segregation of the races. So meeting people face-to-face, shaking their hands, saying drive safely, all of that, do you feel like you walked away knowing something that you didn't know before?

BELL: The thing that I walked away with - and especially with those guys at the cross burning - was that by the time - we'd been there for hours. Like, we got there before nightfall. We had to wait for nightfall to happen before we could shoot the cross burning. And we were there for hours. And, you know, we're not shooting the whole time, so sometimes there's stop downs and the guys would take their hoods off. And I'd sort of be like, it's hot under there? And they're like, yeah, it's really - and we sort of would have conversations. And for a little bit, you might - I would sort of - I knew we all forgot where we were. We were just people outside working on a thing together in a weird way. And I know by the time I left - there's one guy in particular I can think of - I was like, that guy likes me.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: And I know that some of them went to sleep that night - not all of them. Some of them I could tell kept the guard up the whole time. And it was like, I think I like a black guy now.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BELL: It's like a little bit of an "American History X" moment - like, you know, he's the Ed Norton and I'm the guy in the laundromat sort of going, you know, not all black people are the same. And so I think that that's what I walked away with feeling like If we actually sit down and have a conversation, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything - and this is true of the entire country - but we can at least leave some room for each other's humanity and see each other as humans at the end of the conversation.

GROSS: Let's take short break, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is W. Kamau Bell. He has a new series. It's kind of like a political, social satirical documentary series, and it's called "United Shades Of America." It premieres April 24 on CNN. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is comic W. Kamau Bell. He has a new CNN series called "United Shades Of America." It's a docu-series in which he travels to places in which he feels he doesn't belong or that would make him uncomfortable. The series premieres April 24, and he also has a Showtime special, a stand-up special that premieres April 29. Let's talk some more about your CNN series. One of the episodes is set in San Quentin prison where you interview prisoners, you interview one of the administrators there. And why did you choose San Quentin?

BELL: You know, that was really one of the ideas that the producers had. I think that was one of the - I - as a black man in America, I have a very sort of - I've never been in prison, but I've always - it's sort of a part of the story of being black in this country. So I was not really excited about the idea of going into a prison because I was just afraid. Any time you see something on TV about prisons whether it's a narrative or a documentary, it usually portrays prison as a really gross and disgusting and hard place and sort of like a - it's like - I call it like prison pornography. Like, we all watch like, oh, it's so scary in there. And I didn't want to put out that kind of negative image about - I just didn't want to be a part of that. And I think TV production is a beast. Sometimes you go in with one intention and you come out and go, how did we end up with that when we went in with a different intention? So I was really nervous about going in there and somehow putting out another narrative of aren't inmates scary and bad people? And I was also just on a very basic level afraid of going into prison. Like, you know, like - I sort of had bought into the narrative I didn't want to put out. So I was afraid of going in there just on a - what are they going to do to me, you know, in that sort of stupid narrative, and I own it as being stupidity. I got there and within a minute of walking the yard with the administrator, one of the inmates was like, hey, man, you're the comedian. Like he recognized me. And we had left it in the show, like, oh, I like it now. This is good. Like it was just - which just goes to show you that, like, again - that was - I was like, I didn't see him as an inmate. I saw him as a human who liked me as a comedian, and suddenly, I felt more comfortable to be in there. So very quickly, my whole idea preconceived notion of prison was blown up, so it was very - that's my favorite episode of the season.

GROSS: Well, I want to play a clip from it, and the prison administrator who's taking you on the tour, Lt. Sam Robinson, introduces you to some prisoners. And you're in the prison yard, and it's a really big yard. And the yard seems to be segregated by race. And so you ask about that, and here you are with the administrator, Lt. Sam Robinson.

(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA")

BELL: I'm looking around. I see sort of different groups of people in different areas. Are the areas broken up in any way?

LIEUTENANT SAM ROBINSON: The areas are broken up in a way. Just beyond the tennis court or primarily where the white guys are...

BELL: OK.

ROBINSON: ...There are a couple different areas for those guys. The basketball court is primarily where all the African-Americans are. There's a little area of land just behind us near the shack where the Pisces...

BELL: The what?

ROBINSON: Pisces, so those individuals who are from Mexico's south, Hispanic inmates who are not Californians so to say.

BELL: Oh, OK.

ROBINSON: And then Nortenos which are Northern Hispanic. There's an area where they're at. And so the yard is segregated based upon some underground rules.

BELL: OK. So it seems like the black guys got the basketball court, no surprise there. But if you're a white guy that wants to play basketball, is it just not recommended that you go over there?

ROBINSON: (Laughter).

BELL: I mean, do white guys got to get jump shot? I mean, would they welcome you in there or...

ROBINSON: You may feel that way, and it may not be that these guys have an issue with you.

BELL: OK.

ROBINSON: It's that the guys who look like you may have an issue with you coming over here.

BELL: Oh. Is there any sort of effort to try to create that cross-pollination?

ROBINSON: There are many efforts we have, whether it be through educational opportunities, some of the programs we have, work assignments. We do try to bring our population together, and we successfully put people next to each other who traditionally will not be next to each other.

GROSS: That's the scene from comic W. Kamau Bell's new CNN series, "United Shades Of America." The series premieres April 24. After a short break, we'll talk more about his CNN series and about how his life changed after his previous cable series of political satire was canceled. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: That's the thing. Have you worried that you would be mistaken for somebody who was a suspect or you would do something that was misinterpreted and that you'd be arrested as a result and things would spiral and get out of control and it would be disastrous?

BELL: Yeah. I mean, I walk around with that fear every day. Like, I walk around with that fear of like, of the minute I leave my house, I'm a black man in America. And even in my house (laughter) sometimes, depending on what's going on. But I'm aware of, like - especially being a 6-foot-4, 250-pound black guy with, quote unquote, "crazy hair," I'm aware that when I'm in the world, many people see me as either a criminal or a future criminal. And so I'm aware that how I exist in the world doesn't mean it's going to stop me from ending into prison or a bad situation or dead at the hands of a police officer, but I'm aware that I'm sort of on - I'm on notice. I'm on alert.

GROSS: So at the risk of getting you into trouble, what did you mean when you said even at home (laughter)?

BELL: Oh no, just that, like, just that - I just - what I'm saying is that at home, it's - you're not - you can't be safe in your own house in this country either. I mean, I always think of the Henry Louis Gates thing...

GROSS: Oh, right.

BELL: ...Like, you know, arrested for breaking into his house. No, I am a black man in my house just because that's how it works. But my wife doesn't go look, black man, we don't have to have this discussion (laughter). Although I think that me and my wife, because of the nature of our relationship and who she is - and she's an academic, as I talked about in that clip earlier - that a lot of her academia is sort of - I don't know how to say this in a way that doesn't sound - I always fumble around this. But she's a - certainly a feminist. And so a lot of our conversations, especially when we first started dating, were, like feminism versus racism. (Laughter) Sort of like, this is how I see the world, this is how I see the world. These are the books I've read, these are the books I've read. Now we understand it's not a versus thing, but it is a thing about, like - she, my wife, was a big part of me opening up my perspective. And obviously, there are black women who are feminists, but I think, you know, there's certainly a white feminist ideology and a black man race ideology that we sort of collaborated on and turned into two children.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So while we're on the subject, what's the intersection of those two places that you've had to discuss over the years?

BELL: What is the intersection of those places? I think - I mean, I remember early on when we were dating, we had a conversation one time - there's a - like, a neighborhood in San Francisco that she was saying, like, I don't like walking around that neighborhood because it's dangerous. And I was just like, what? I just think you're being ridiculous. Those are good people, those are blah blah blah (ph). She's like, I don't being there at night. And I'm like, blah blah blah. She's like, you're a 6-foot-4 black man in that neighborhood. I'm a 5-foot-8 white woman. It's different. And I was like, oh yeah, you're making a good point there. Like (laughter) I think that for me, that conversation has led me to go - the eyes you're seeing the world through - this is true of everybody - are your eyes, and it doesn't mean that what you're seeing is accurate to what everybody else is seeing. So one of the big lessons I learned in the Bay Area - I've said this before - is like, when to shut up and listen. And so that was an opportunity with my wife where I was like, I should just shut up and pay attention to what she's saying.

GROSS: (Laughter) So I want to ask you about another episode of your CNN series. In this one, you go to Camden to follow the Camden police, who are just trying out community policing. So why did you choose Camden, and what's community policing?

BELL: You know, it's - we wanted to - I always wanted to do a police episode. When we shot this, it was last year and certainly, that was - Ferguson was in the news a lot more and Baltimore, and so I really wanted to do something where we got to hang out with police officers. Turns out a lot of police departments don't want a black comedian hanging out with them. (Laughter) So, like, we weren't, like, overwhelmed with invitations. But Camden, because they're doing this thing called community policing, really wants to get the message out that they're trying to change things. And so they welcomed us in. They - community policing is the idea of what a lot of people would think is old-school policing where a cop walks beat, knows everybody in the neighborhood, says hello to people, the people in the neighborhood feel like that's officer Joe, not that's a cop. And so that when bad things happen, the idea is that those people trust that officer, so they can talk to that officer and tell them the truth. And that officer knows who the people are in the neighborhood who might do bad things instead of just thinking that everybody in the neighborhood is the same. It comes from the idea that, like, cops used to live in the cities that they policed. And I talked to a lot of people in Camden - and that's not true in Camden necessarily. A lot of the cops are from Camden, but a lot of cops live outside. And a lot of people think that that's not good for the police department when people don't live in the city because they don't have an investment in the city. Like, if you're a Ferguson cop and you live in the suburbs outside of Ferguson, you come into Ferguson to sort of keep these people away from the suburbs instead of come - instead if you live in Ferguson or in Camden, you're like, stop hurting my city. And it's just a different idea. So they're working on that idea of community policing in Camden.

GROSS: So you say in the program, I have a natural fear of police that black people have instilled in them. And you talk about the fear of calling police if there's trouble. You say, I have a natural fear of police that black people have instilled in them, like mountain lions. But you don't have to call mountain lions when you need help.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: I forgot about that. Good one, me.

GROSS: Yeah, good one (laughter). So were you uncomfortable being with the police?

BELL: You know, the funny thing is I was uncomfortable about other black people seeing me with the police. Like, Camden is a very black city. And so every time black people - I would be standing on the corner, talking to a cop, or if I was riding in the front of the police car, I was very aware of other black people looking like, what is happening? And sometimes - a couple times, actually - this happened in the episode - I don't think we caught it, but some guy flipped off the cop. Just ran past him, just flipped him off. And I felt very aware of, like, looking like some sort of uncle Tom sellout in that moment of, like, why is this brother over here hanging out with cops? In the same way that, like, some black people have tweeted me about the fact that I'm hanging out with the Klan. Like, somehow I'm sort of there to go - to sort of buy their message hook, line and sinker.

GROSS: So that said, did you feel like you got a greater understanding of what police are up against by hanging out with some of the cops?

BELL: I mean, I get the - I get that that's a hard job. I get that police officers trying to put that that out there. I get that. I'm not - that's why I didn't apply for it. Like, I'm not -

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: I get it's a hard job. I get that part of your job may end up with you being killed, and that's just part of the job description. So I feel like that narrative of it's hard to be a police officer - yeah, we all get that, which is why we need the best, brightest, smartest people and most apt people for that job and most sensitive people for the job.

GROSS: There's a moment in there where - in this episode - you're with the police and they're staking out this abandoned house that's basically falling down. I mean, half of the walls are corroded away, the roof has a hole in it, it looks like an antique shack.

BELL: It looked like it was from a movie.

GROSS: Yeah.

BELL: It was so well set-dressed that it looked like a fake place because it was so - it was dilapidated in every sense of the word. And there were just random things in the house, and clearly people have been going - yeah, it looked too real to be real.

GROSS: And it had become a drug house, so the police have their eyes on it, I guess. Or maybe they had their eyes on it because you were there, I don't know.

BELL: It's a - no, it's a well-known drug house. We talked to people in the neighborhood.

GROSS: Yeah.

BELL: It's one of the drug spots.

GROSS: And things are happening that day and the police ended up going in with guns drawn and finding drugs and finding people. And when that is over, you're reflecting on the incident. You're standing outside the house, you've been talking to neighbors, and one of the neighbors says, you know, this is a drug house in the neighborhood. There's people - like, 40 people in and out of it every day. And our children see this and it affects them. And then so you're just reflecting on that and you just start to tear up. And then you said that you're thinking of, like, your children and what it would be like to have children having to live in a neighborhood like this, on a block like this. Can you talk a little bit more about what you were thinking about at that moment?

BELL: We so it was - it seems like it was set up, and it was not set up, at least not to my knowledge. We went on a ride - I went on a ride-along, which I've heard - everybody tells you ride-alongs are boring and nothing ever happens. And so we went to one spot, and they sort of - it was like - we sort of looked around and the cop showed me, like, this is the drug paraphernalia. This is recently used. And he's like, oh, let's go that other house. So we went to this other house. And we pulled up and it was like - I was in the front of the car with this cop who was a very coppy (ph) cop. Like (laughter), a very, like - a very, like, sort of shaved head, sunglasses on, like, huge - but we were talking - again, we're just two people talking. And then as we pull up, I could feel the air change. Like, I could feel his energy change. And he looked out - he was like - he was talking about the house and suddenly, his energy changed. And some guy walked past the car, who I didn't even really notice. And within a few seconds, another cop car behind us, dogs were out barking, and there was, like, four or five white guys sitting on the stoop who apparently had - we found out later were in the house doing drugs. And it was just the - and as I'm watching this happen, sort of like I'm in an episode of "Cops," which was never my fantasy, I look down the street and I can see people who live in that neighborhood leaning out of their house or sort of coming to their stoop in the front just to look - to see what's happening. And in that moment, when you just - it's - again, it's the micro view of the house - this is a dilapidated house for people doing drugs - and you step out a little bit and look at the marco view of, like, people live in this neighborhood. And the houses that I'm looking at that are next to this house look like houses in my neighborhood. They don't look like rundown, dilapidated places. They look like places where people have pride. There was a guy working on his lawn. And the other thing - these people don't look like they're scared of what's happening. They look like, oh, it's the Tuesday 3 p.m. rousting of that house. And there's kids and there's families. And I just feel like in that moment, I felt like I just couldn't imagine that being a part of my kids' daily world and - where you just sort of become dead to that idea. And I couldn't imagine living in a place where you didn't feel like - forget the city having your back, but the city - but that the city didn't really care about you because when - that house stays there. That drug problem stays there. The cops aren't there 24 hours a day. As soon as the cops leave, other people come into to that house. And so I got totally overwhelmed. And there was a part of me that, when I started - and I started to tear up - and to be clear, it was more than that. It was crying - that I was like - I sort wanted to - there was a part of me that wanted to, like, just sort of step away and not get that on film. And then a part of me was like - I really trusted the camera people at that point, we were really comfortable, I think, together. And so I called Patrick over because I was like, let me just talk about this because I feel like this is - I'm having this moment, and I feel like it's something that - this is why we're making the show.

GROSS: OK, let's take a short break here and then Kamau Bell and I will talk some more. My guess is W. Kamau Bell. He's a comic and satirist. His new CNN series is called "United Shades Of America." He also has a Showtime special coming up on April 29. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is comic W. Kamau Bell. He has two things coming up, a Showtime stand-up comedy special on April 29 at 10 o'clock Eastern and then a new CNN series called "United Shades Of America." That's kind of like a documentary road series in which he travels around mostly to places that make him uncomfortable and finds out about the people there, finds out why they think what they do and why they do what they do. And that starts April 24 at 10 o'clock Eastern. So I'm really glad you have your new CNN series. I really like it a lot.

BELL: Thank You.

GROSS: I'm wondering after...

BELL: There's a lot of love out there for me with that. I really appreciate it. People are happy. They're like, yay, you're back on TV (laughter).

GROSS: Exactly, yes. No, exactly. And I was really disappointed when "Totally Bias" was canceled. Were you depressed afterwards?

BELL: Yeah (laughter). That's the easiest question you've asked me - totally, completely gutted. I thought showbiz was over, and I was stranded in New York in an apartment that was way too expensive for a guy who didn't have a job. And I had my - and my oldest daughter - I had one daughter. She was like 3 years old. And we were like, how are we going to live in the city and what do I got to do? And, you know, this apartment is too expensive because we sort of moved into an apartment that was the budget of a guy on a TV show. And then I didn't have a TV show. And I saw this money dripping out of everything. And I really felt like that was a referendum on me, you know, because I had put all of myself into that show and - but at the same time was happy it was cancelled.

GROSS: Why?

BELL: It had - we all worked really hard on that show. And I think when we went to four days a week, it really - we weren't ready for that. And, you know, I think we all gave it a college effort. And it also just - I had a lot of friends on that show, and by the end, you know, relationships had changed - or before the end - but, like - so, like, people who had been my friend were now not my friends who I - because now I'm their boss. And then people who didn't know me now - people who I'm working with who I thought were my friends - it's just - the - by the end, I sort of compared it to like every Vietnam War movie, where everybody just goes their separate directions. And I don't ever need to see you again. You know, it's like they're in the platoon where it's like I shot myself in the leg to get out of here. So it's like - it was really - so there was a real sense of, like, I'm sad that it's over and thank God it's over.

GROSS: How do you deal with depression in a period like that?

BELL: You know, I was married and had - I am married - and I had a little girl. And you - I can't flip off the planet. Like, I can't just give into it. So I have to sort of like slowly put one foot in front of the other. But, like, there was just a real sense of like if I had been not married with a kid, I would've booked that Dave Chappelle ticket to South Africa. Like, I would've just been like good luck, everybody. Like, that makes a lot of sense now, Dave Chappelle, I get it now. I would've disappeared for a while. I think I would've. Not - and I don't mean in any sort dangerous way, I think, but I would've, like, totally just been like, well, I think I'm done with this, with whatever this is. But I couldn't do it. I mean, I - you know, and I slowly realized that the canceling of the show was probably better for my career anyway because the show was sort of going by by dribs and drabs by that point. It wasn't really - we weren't getting good ratings. We weren't getting a lot of attention. I was sort of - the wear and tear was seen on my face, my friends who watched the show could see that it was hard for me. And when the show got canceled, all this sort of love - it became like Woodstock. More people claimed they were there than who were clearly there. And so it suddenly became - like, all these articles were written up about it and all this love. And now there's a narrative about it that I've been able to embrace of like, yes, that's right, another African-American folktale. You know, like the man can't handle my truth bomb. So, like, it became this thing where it's like I can sort of sit on top of the legend of the show and not actually be sort of crushed by the weight of the show.

GROSS: So then you move from your too expensive - now that you didn't have a TV show - your too expensive apartment in New York back to the West Coast.

BELL: Yeah. What happened is that my wife got pregnant...

GROSS: To the Bay Area.

BELL: ...Yeah, to the Bay Area. My wife got pregnant, and we started to go to OBGYNs in New York. And we had been - our first daughter - we'd had our first daughter in San Francisco at the very sort of like just take your time and enjoy yourself and breathe and have some tea and have the baby. And then OBGYNs in New York, they're like we will take that baby out of you (laughter). You get 20 minutes to deliver that baby. If not, we're coming in. And my wife was just like I don't want to do this. And I was like, I don't want you to do this. And so we - really my wife being pregnant was the determining factor, like we need to be around our friends and family as we go through this again. And then once we got through, I mean, my wife - we did everything but kiss the ground when we got out of there. But we had been back several times. But we knew when we had moved back, it was like, this is where we belong.

GROSS: And how did you get your bearings again as a comic?

BELL: It's funny. It was like there was - I had done some shows, but then when we moved back, my wife was very pregnant. And I got the pilot for the CNN show, and so I knew that I had that thing working. And then I actually just did this thing where there was a venue very near my house where we live in Berkeley. And so I did a series of shows called "Home By 10," where it was a series of stand-up comedy shows that I did where it was just like the idea. There was once a week on Thursdays. And the whole idea was that the show's close enough to my house. I could be home by 10. And so like - and it was just a way to sort of really try out lots of new material and also a lot of people in Berkeley just wanted to come see me. And the (unintelligible) were like you're back. And there was a lot of love for me being back. And so through that, I sort of built myself back up into feeling like, oh, I'm a person again because I really wanted to feel like a person again. I didn't want to feel like a guy with a TV show.

GROSS: Right. So now can you be a guy with a TV show who's still a person?

BELL: Yes, because I'm not leaving the Bay Area of California. I mean, I'm taking trips like I have today, but I'm not - they will never get us to move out of the Bay Area. I don't care what the deal is. I don't care how much money is on the table. You know, at this point, the only way it happens is if we're talking like Oprah level of money and summer homes, but not just, hey, if you move to LA or - no, we're not. I know enough about myself now through "Totally Biased" and through my career, that like, I'm not interested in that kind of show business.

GROSS: Based on our previous interview, you moved a lot with your mother and went to a lot of different schools. You spent some of the time in Alabama with your father. So - I think most children become slightly different people depending on the context that they're in 'cause you're still being shaped by the world around you. You don't know who you are yet. So if the world is always telling you who you are and the world keeps changing, that must have a really big impact on you.

BELL: I mean, it basically made me an introvert. I mean, I think everybody manifests that differently. Some people become a super like - I'm friends with everybody. But for me, it just made me sort of go inside. And I'm also an only child. I have a stepsister, but I was really raised as an only child. And so I'm always in my head anyway, and that's what led me to stand-up comedy because I was always in my head thinking things over and always thinking of the things to say but not having the courage to say it. And so it made me a real sort of an extreme introvert and not sort of feeling disconnected from everybody because I felt like I was not going to be there that long. And it was only after graduating from high school and going to college for a little bit - actually here in Philadelphia - briefly that I sort of got to figure out, well, who am I? And that's - I'm a stand-up comedian. I'm somebody who always wanted to do stand-up comedy so let me do that.

GROSS: So you left college?

BELL: Yeah, I dropped out of college. The narrative would be great to be, I dropped out of college to become a comedian. No, I dropped out of college because it was hard, and I couldn't figure out how to get through the day. Like, I got pretty - that was another time in my life I got pretty depressed. And, like, I made a bad choice in my college choice. This is not where I want to be. It's a great school, but it wasn't for me. And then I went home and, like, laid in bed all day and watched LA burn to the ground during the Rodney King riots, and sort of slowly my mom signed me up for classes at Second City because she knew it was something that I always talked about. And that - you know, 25 years later, here we are.

(LAUGHTER)

BELL: But yeah, it was just sort of like a very slow process.

GROSS: My guest is comic W. Kamau Bell. His new CNN series "United Shades Of America" premieres Sunday, April 24. His Showtime comedy special premieres April 29. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. My guest is comic W. Kamau Bell. He has a new CNN series called "United Shades Of America" and a new Showtime standup comedy special called "Semi-Prominent Negro." There's a part in the Showtime special where you talk about trying to find, like, a preschool for one of your daughters. And there's this, like, preschool that's, like, really wonderful. It's all about, like, playtime for the children because children shouldn't be oppressed by having to...

BELL: Learn, yeah.

GROSS: ...Learn too much - should have time to just be themselves and be children and be free. And you go, no, we're talking about black children here...

BELL: Yes.

GROSS: ...And they really need to learn...

BELL: Yes.

GROSS: ...Because this is what they're going to be up against.

BELL: Especially raising a black female - two black female children - like, no, they already are seen as being behind the starting line. They're already sort of starting behind starting line, so I need this child to be as ready as possible as soon as possible, and I need knowledge. I really feel like my daughter's just a sponge. I need to just put as much into her - more than she can hold - as opposed to giving her space in order to just be.

GROSS: So that reminded me of what you told me about your mother - that when you were young she always tried to send you, no matter what city you were living in, to a private school so that you could get the best education, which was very important to her. She taught African-American studies; she worked in publishing. But the flipside of that was that those, like, good private schools were predominantly white, so you were left being one of the very few African-Americans in the school, which probably added to any identity issues you were going through. Do you think a lot about that in terms of your children and what they'll go through? Though in the Bay Area, I'm sure things are, you know, pretty multicultural.

BELL: They can be, but that's also changing thanks to the good people in Silicon Valley. (Laughter) So they're working hard every day to change that.

GROSS: (Laughter).

BELL: They're really doing well in that project - the whiter-fication (ph) of the Bay Area. So yes - it means that our daughter goes to - our oldest daughter Sammy goes to kindergarten in the fall. And my wife, like, in a very academic way, like, really took on the job of, like, finding the right school and then going to dozens - not dozens, but maybe a dozen schools to look at things - public schools, private schools, charter schools - and really, like, you know, had friends - they would meet together and sort of talk about other friends who were trying to get their kids in. And so it was a very active decision. It was not going to be like, oh, I'll just go to the school across the street. And so - and we found a school and we - and there's two things - the educational side, but then also because of what I'd been through, the multicultural race side - like to make sure that there's enough - that my daughter feels like she looks around and sees lots of different shades of the rainbow of skin color, and that she doesn't feel like she's the only one. And also that there's - to be very clear - there's also a lot of not just - but black people - like, a contingent of black people there - because it's, like - it's important to me that my daughter learned what I learned - that, like, no matter how you feel you're being treated by black people at any given time, those are your people.

GROSS: How does your wife feel when you say that?

BELL: How does my wife feel - those are her - she knows that those are my daughters' people. She knows that - we've talked about that a lot. It was really, like, you know - and the joke I do about the hair was really just a piece of the puzzle. Like, we had a lot of conversations. She understood that she was having a black daughter. And part of the way she understood that was, I need to learn how to do her hair. So my wife knows she has black kids, but she also knows she has female children. So that's - you know, so there's - it's not just about being black. There's a lot that we have to offer. And my daughter has - my parents are great, but my wife's parents are, like, the ultimate grandparents - like, you know, the sort of the, like, tea party, doughnuts every day, like, you know, like, you can watch as much TV as you want. Like, so she's - and those are her grandparents too. Those are white people, you know? So, you know, we're very proactive about this. And also, it wasn't really my wife who had to come to this conclusion, it was, like, her parents who had to realize this. And I'm going to say this now - I think I've said this before - I'm sort of saying I don't know how my wife will feel about this - about this whole race thing getting out. It's not a big deal, but I think she'll be fine with it. My wife told me that at one point, her mom came to her, I think while my wife was still pregnant, and said, so wait, Sammy's going to be black. And my wife was like, yes, that's true. And she said her mom was like, OK. And in that little tiny thing was, like, years of, like, race discussions with my wife and me, and her getting her family sort of into the idea of, like, my boyfriend is this black guy; my husband is this black guy. Sort of like there was just this whole, like, you know, circle of life that happened in that one moment that I was, like, sort of - wasn't there for but I was like, yay (ph) - you know.

GROSS: So now that you're the father of two daughters who are old enough to miss you when you're gone...

BELL: Thanks for bringing that up (laughter).

GROSS: ...Is it frustrating when you do your job as a stand-up comic and you're on the road, you're also away from your family?

BELL: It's the worst. I mean, it's - I didn't know how hard that would be. Especially my oldest daughter who's five, she gets that I travel, but it's still hard on her every time when I leave every time she gets really sort of, like, clingy and starts to whine. My youngest daughter doesn't. She's 17 months. She doesn't really get what's happening, but my wife will often say she will, like, when they come home, she'll just run into the house and go, dada, dada, dada, looking for me. And it's just - you know, it's - I feel really privileged to be able to have a career thanks to a lot of good breaks and hard work that I can put food on my family's table, and that this thing that was like basically, like, a glorified hobby for the first 10 or 15 years is now a real thing that actually can send them to good schools and give them a good life. It just also sucks that it means I have to leave home. I'm really excited for the time where my oldest daughter - she's almost old enough to come with me sometimes. I'm really excited. Like I said, we're friends. And so I'm really excited for - I haven't done it yet, but I'm very close to just sort of, like, if I take a short trip, just bringing her with me because I think she's very fascinated by my career. She actually said recently, I want to be on television like dada. And I was like, no, you want to be an accountant...

GROSS: (Laughter).

BELL: (Laughter) ...For the people on TV, maybe. But, you know, I'm just - I'm excited for the idea of bringing them with me. A lot of my friends who are comics don't have families, like, they're - you know, even though some of them are the same age as me. And so I feel really sort of alone a lot of times in that sense of, like, being out and missing my family. But I really - it's important to me that this career isn't separate from my family, which is why we moved back to the Bay Area. And it's important to me that my kids get deep - the whole idea of show business - they just sort of - the mystery comes out of it and it's just what dad does.

GROSS: Kamau, it's been so great to talk with you again. Thank you so much, and good luck with your new shows.

BELL: Thank you very much. I'm honored to be here. I know I won't be here as often as Louis CK, but I'm glad to be back.

GROSS: (Laughter) It's totally great to have you back. W. Kamal Bell's CNN series "United Shades Of America" premieres Sunday, April 24 at 10 p.m. Eastern. His Showtime stand-up comedy special, "Semi-Prominent Negro," premieres April 29. I'm Terry Gross.

Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.