Conductor Benjamin Zander: 'The Art of Possibility'

DATE May 18, 2001 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Boston Philharmonic conductor Benjamin Zander talks
about his career and the music of Gustav Mahler
BARBARA BOGAEV, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev, in for Terry Gross.

Over his 20-year history with the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra, Benjamin
Zander has earned an international reputation as one of the most ambitious
conductors in the business, daring to take on the great masters of the
classical repertoire. He's known as an expert on the music of Gustav Mahler
and has been working with the London Philharmonia since 1995, conducting and
recording a series of the composer's symphonies. His new CD with the
Philharmonia is a recording of Mahler's 5th, and it includes an extra disk in
which Zander explores the emotional dynamics of Mahler's music and the
composer's tragic life. The discussion is drawn from Zander's popular
preconcert talks. Here's an excerpt.

(Soundbite of preconcert talks)

Mr. BENJAMIN ZANDER: Mahler's orchestra is huge--over 100 musicians--but it
is rare for them to play altogether, although when they do, you certainly
know about it. Listen to this moment at the climax of the first movement
when all the musicians on stage are playing as loud as they possibly can.
And in order to be sure he gets the very loudest sound possible, Mahler marks
an instruction for each of the wind and brass players to raise the bells of
their instruments into the air.

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. ZANDER: It is an overwhelming sound. In an acoustically responsive
concert hall, it can have a visceral effect, analogous to being hit hard in
the solar plexus. At home, it is the ultimate test not only of the range of
your hi-fi equipment but also of the human capacity to tolerate sheer
decibels.

(End of soundbite)

BOGAEV: Benjamin Zander is the co-author of a new book about music and the
psychology of creativity. It's called "The Art of Possibility: Transforming
Professional and Personal Life." I spoke with Zander last year after the
release of his recording of Mahler's 9th Symphony, which included a copy of
Zander's own conducting score. I asked him why he wanted listeners to see
his notes.

Mr. ZANDER: Well, there are two reasons. One is it's a fascinating way of
entering a score, because, otherwise, how would an ordinary person be able to
look at a score unless somebody were to guide them through it by pointing out
everything that a conductor would need to know.

There's another reason which is that if you focus for a moment on every
element in the music and realize that every note and every gesture and every
shape and every phrasing means something in the whole, that gives you an
insight of how to listen. And that's my main purpose. I believe that every
human being has the capacity to respond to great music and to be touched and
moved by it and to have their lives changed by it. And so this is the best
way of drawing people in; namely, to say, `Listen to this note,' and then,
`Listen to that,' and then, `Now listen to this and see what this is doing
while that's happening and think about the meaning and implication of that.'

And gradually, people get drawn in. And people who have never had any
training in music whatsoever have told me they've been riveted by that
experience and they've used it as a way of getting inside the music and
listening to the rest of the piece, since, obviously, I only do that for two
pages, to listen to the rest of the piece with their eyes and ears wide open.

BOGAEV: Do you think that it's similar to what people say about poetry, that,
as children, we have this innate ability to interact, to experience the music,
to feel it...

Mr. ZANDER: Yes.

BOGAEV: ...and that we lose that as we get older, unless you nourish it?

Mr. ZANDER: We lose it the way we lose all sorts of things in life. You
know, you were a seven-year-old child and you were singing in the choir and a
teacher said, `Don't actually sing. I'd prefer it if you would just mouth the
words 'cause you're spoiling the sound of the choir.' And that child grows up
to be somebody who later on says, `I'm tone deaf and can't hear music.' And
that's all it is. It's somebody simply closing down a door, which used to be
open. I feel my role is partly to open those doors again, to remind people of
the power of this music and how deeply affecting it can be, even if you have
no academic training in it or don't even really know the difference between,
you know, a dominant seventh and a minor third. But somehow this music is--we
are permeable to this music if we allow ourselves to be and we close down all
the conversations which tell us that we can't do it.

BOGAEV: You have an interesting professional history with Mahler and Mahler's
9th. I think over 20 years ago you were fired as the conductor of the Boston
Civic Symphony by its board because you presented such difficult music.
What's so provoke them? What did they not like about it?

Mr. ZANDER: Well, I'd done a lot of, as they called it, Mahler. They didn't
like the music. It was too difficult. You know, this was an orchestra that
wanted to be entertained. One of the board members asked me why I didn't
perform any of the Chopin. Well, of course, I said I had no time to write
any, but this was not a group of people who wanted to be challenged to the
ultimate. And so they saw this as a kind of confrontation.

They fired me because they felt that the orchestra was going in the wrong
direction. And what happened next was that the entire orchestra resigned, all
98 players. And I think the reason for that was because the players,
themselves saw this as a wonderful path to being going on, to be delving deep
into this music. We had a long period of rehearsal time because it was a
community orchestra and so, I believe, we had 22 rehearsals for that
performance over a three-month period. And it really transformed the lives of
the people who participated. And they weren't about to give that up, so they
went on with what is now the Boston Philharmonic.

BOGAEV: Now we've been talking about how difficult and complex this music is
and you do say in the discussion of Mahler's 9th that--especially in this 3rd
movement of it that you wonder why the first-time listener would want to
listen. They might ask themselves, `Why should I listen to this? It's so
bleak. It's so hard to follow'...

Mr. ZANDER: Yes.

BOGAEV: ...and that you know someone who always leaves it out when he listens
to this symphony.

Mr. ZANDER: Right. Well, the old recordings, you know, on the LPs--it was
on four sides and so he could conveniently go from the end of the first
movement to the last movement, which is gorgeous and beautiful and very, very
satisfying to listen to. And he left out those little two movements and what
I believe, of course, is that we have to go through the struggle of the middle
movements, to the dark night of the soul in order to appreciate coming out the
other side, so that when we finally get to the pages at the end of the 9th
Symphony when he expresses his own mortality, his own death, we have been on a
long, arduous struggle and come out the other side. If you've avoided the
struggle, obviously, you don't appreciate and don't experience the whole
thing. That's the flaw with the approach to music which we see so much
nowadays of taking little bits, sort of the best moments of an opera or the
best moments of the symphony, and pretending that that is the work.

BOGAEV: Let's listen then to 3rd movement of Mahler's 9th. And, Ben,
would you like to say anything before we listen to this movement?

Mr. ZANDER: Well, the thing about this movement is that it's enormously
complex. This is about as complex as music can get in terms of polyphony, of
the voices that are piled one on top of the other. In this, he's like Bach.
And, in fact, he was influenced by Bach. The tempo which I chose for this
performance is a little bit slower than its often heard. And the reason for
that is in order to make sure that every single voice is clearly heard, so
that the complexity of the language of every single moment is experienced.
And when, in the end, it goes over the edge, it really goes into madness, into
a complete hysteria at the end in the final section. That is, then, a feeling
of going over a precipice, of having experienced everything and gone over the
edge. Of course, the consolation of the final movement has to be experienced,
too, in order to get the full weight of that. But it is a chilling, grim,
forbidding experience, although so masterful in its expression and its
technique that it blows one's mind.

BOGAEV: Let's listen. This is the 3rd movement of Mahler's 9th.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: That's my guest, Benjamin Zander, leading the Philharmonia Orchestra
of London in a live performance of Mahler's 9th.

Now I want, Ben, to play a little bit of the 4th, the final movement, of this
symphony because, as you said earlier, you want to get to the resolution of
the...

Mr. ZANDER: The consolation ...(unintelligible). Yeah.

BOGAEV: The consolation of the final movement. In the beginning I find
myself listening to this, holding my breath, waiting to exhale. Is that what
you're consciously leading your orchestra to create that effect?

Mr. ZANDER: Definitely. I'm thrilled that you have that feeling. And,
actually, at the end of that movement, there's a 56-second silence before
anybody dared to applaud after the performance. And that's the same thing
you're talking about. Mahler has the capacity of holding us enthralled, where
the lines are so long, where the tension is so great that he simply doesn't
allow us to breathe. And if we allow the music to unfold in that way, we can
hold 2,000 people in a hall in that kind of spell. It is one of the few
things that can do that.

BOGAEV: Let's listen to the beginning of the 4th movement of Mahler's 9th.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: That's my guest, Benjamin Zander, leading the Philharmonia Orchestra
of London in a live performance of Mahler's 9th.

For this music, do you make a conscious effort to develop the individuality
of your musicians rather than trying to homogenize the sound of the orchestra?

Mr. ZANDER: Yes, that gets at the absolute, central idea of Mahler's music.
In most music, we're taught to make all the voices amalgamate--as you say,
homogenize; that's a perfect way of describing it--where everything is
related and listening carefully to everything else and it all sound very
pretty. The secret of Mahler's music is that every single individual voice
is separate from every other. And that makes it profoundly modern. Each
voice, each instrument seems to have a life of its own and sometimes he calls
on an instrument to play very softly and, at the same time, another
instrument might be playing very loud and raucously. And it's actually quite
a discipline to get an orchestra to realize that and not make the quiet
person play a little louder and the loud person a little softer to make it
all belong together. And that is at the absolute core of his expression and,
I think, tells us something about who we are, as people, and is a unique
voice for Mahler.

BOGAEV: If you're just joining us, my guest is Benjamin Zander. He is the
conductor of the Boston Philharmonic. He teaches at the New England
Conservatory and conducts their youth philharmonic orchestra. He's also
served as guest conductor for numerous other orchestras in this country and
abroad.

Ben, let's take a break and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: My guest is Boston Philharmonic conductor Benjamin Zander.

Now how do you decide, as a conductor, where to take liberties with the piece
and to depart from the notations of a composer and when to adhere to them as
faithfully as you can?

Mr. ZANDER: Well, in general...

BOGAEV: ...(Unintelligible).

Mr. ZANDER: ..I'm one who believes in adhering faithfully to what the
composer wrote and I will actually go to quite extremes to do that. I really
believe these composers were taking us into often counterintuitive places,
places where we wouldn't go just on our own, naturally, by following our
instincts. And so I think it behooves us to follow exactly what they had in
mind. And the Beethoven performances are based not only on following every
dynamic marking and every phrasing, but, also, the tempi that he left through
the metronome marks. And that makes them very unusual because most people
have disregarded those tempo marks and say they're unreasonable or they're too
fast or they don't work or whatever. I have taken him at his word, always
asking the question: Could he have meant it? Could he have meant it? So, in
general, I would say we follow religiously what the composer has given us.

In some cases, I find myself changing what's there. And there would always
have to be a very special reason why I would do that.

BOGAEV: Can you give us an example of when you would take a different path?

Mr. ZANDER: Well, I might take a different path if I simply cannot
understand what the composer meant. The first movement of the Prokofiev 5th
Symphony is at a tempo so slow that I cannot make it work at that tempo. Now
there's something--either I'm wrong about it or he simply wrote the wrong
tempo. I think it's perfectly possible that either is true. That would be
one example.

There's a fascinating example in Stravinsky of "The Rite of Spring" where
what the composer wrote and what I believe he intended was something
different. That happened because we have a piano role of Stravinsky not
actually playing but a piano role he supervised of the final section, "The
Dance Acrall(ph)," where the piano role is 30 points faster on the metronome
than his own performances and what he wrote in the score. And it's possible
that the faster tempo, thrilling and exciting as it is, was simply too hard to
play or too hard to conduct and so he reduced the tempo so that it would be
more comfortable. I think, in the process, he lost some of the power and the
incredible excitement of hearing this at a breakneck speed; this is, after
all, suggesting a young virgin dancing herself to death. And at the slower
tempo, I suspect she would hardly break a sweat. At the faster tempo, you can
really feel the frenzy and the desperation and the terror and I think it makes
a much more effective interpretation, though Stravinsky, himself, neither did
it nor wrote it.

BOGAEV: Now I know you brought two examples of "The Rite of Spring" with you
so that we could hear this.

Mr. ZANDER: Yes.

BOGAEV: Maybe we could play them.

Mr. ZANDER: Good. Well, you can hear--first of all, there's a performance
of Stravinsky playing, say, the last minute of "The Dance Acrall" at the tempo
that he chose both to mark in the score and to perform it at. And then,
immediately afterwards, we could play the same passage, played by the Boston
Philharmonic at the tempo of the piano role.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: And now the Boston Philharmonic's recording from a live performance
of the last minute of "The Dance Acrall."

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: That's the Boston Philharmonic playing Stravinsky's "Dance Acrall"
from "The Rites of Spring."

Benjamin Zander is the co-author of a new book, "The Art of Possibility." His
new CD is "Mahler: Symphony No. 5"; Benjamin Zander conducting the
Philharmonia Orchestra. I'm Barbara Bogaev and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

(Credits)

Unidentified Woman: This is NPR, National Public radio.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: Coming up, Kevin Whitehead concludes his Avant-Garde Made Easy series
with the music of Misha Mengelberg. Also, actress Brenda Blethyn--she
co-stars in the TV miniseries "Anne Frank," which begins this weekend.
Blethyn's films include "Secrets & Lies," "Little Voice" and "Saving Grace"
which was recently released on video.

(Soundbite of music)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Brenda Blethyn, British actress, talks about the
roles she's played in past films and her latest film "Saving
Grace"
BARBARA BOGAEV, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev.

This Sunday night, ABC airs the first half of the new miniseries "Anne Frank,"
based on Melissa Muller's 1998 biography. Brenda Blethyn plays Mrs. Van Pels
who, with her husband and son, also hides in the Franks' annex. Blethyn is a
British stage actress, best known to audiences here in the States for her
portrayals of single mothers, both in Mike Leigh's "Secrets & Lies," which won
her an Oscar nomination, and the film "Little Voice" with Michael Caine.

I spoke with Brenda Blethyn last year at the release of her feature film
"Saving Grace," directed by Nigel Cole, about a widow whose philandering
husband leaves her monstrously in debt. Grace enters into a desperate scheme
with her gardener, Matthew, to raise money by growing marijuana. "Saving
Grace" is now out on video.

BOGAEV: Brenda Blethyn, welcome to FRESH AIR.

Ms. BRENDA BLETHYN (Actress): Thank you.

BOGAEV: Grace is a masterful gardener of all kinds of plants, and she ends up
then growing these hundreds of kilos of marijuana, enough to fill a whole
greenhouse. I understand you used actual hemp plants. Did that cause any
problems with the law, or did you have to get a special dispensation to work
with hemp?

Ms. BLETHYN: Oh, yes, we did. Now the marijuana plants, most of them, I
hasten to add, are made by our expert design department, Eve Stewart, who you
might know was Oscar nominated for "Topsy-Turvy." But the ones in the
foreground are actual hemp plants, and they were loaned to us under special
dispensation from the Home Office, from the government. And they arrived
under police escort and, I think, were locked up at night. However, the
potent part of their plant had been removed. But I wouldn't know the
difference from one from the other, but that's what I'm told anyway.

BOGAEV: There's another great scene in the movie where you're posing as a
drug dealer in London. And you're this wonderful, upper middle-class woman
from this small town. You're wearing this brilliant white suit, this lovely
getup with an aviator's scarf or something, and you're in the seedy
neighborhood in London.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes.

BOGAEV: Apparently you convinced passer-bys rather too well while you were
filming a scene?

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes, I did. And, by the way, she looked fabulous in that suit
25 years ago. It was part of her trousseau. It was a good job. She hung on
to it. But, my goodness, I thought she looked like Dame Edna Everage. I
don't know if you've ever heard of her.

BOGAEV: Absolutely.

Ms. BLETHYN: But, yes, it was an improvised scene in a busy, normal shopping
day in Portobello Road, and the cameras were hidden, and there was no way it
could be choreographed. And so to facilitate that, I was introduced to 40
extras, who I'd never seen before in my life, before we started the scene, and
they were all brilliantly dressed to blend in with normal, everyday shoppers.
Now I don't know about you, Barbara, but if you were introduced to 40
strangers, who then mingled in with hundreds of other strangers, would you
remember which one was which? Because I couldn't.

BOGAEV: I don't blame you.

Ms. BLETHYN: And so, inadvertently, I would go up to innocent shoppers and
ask if they would like to buy my stash, and then I'd see Nigel waving his
hands shouting, `No, no, no, not that one. Not that one.' And I have to say
I scored twice, and one gentleman tried to make a citizen's arrest on me; put
me in an armlock, and Nigel had to come flying down again from his perch and
say, `No, no, no. Please put her down. It's Brenda Blethyn. She's in our
film "Saving Grace." You'll love it when you see it.' But he did laugh. He
did see the funny side of it, the man did. But good for him.

BOGAEV: You were nominated for an Oscar for your role as Cynthia in Mike
Leigh's "Secrets & Lies." Cynthia is a bit of a down-and-out, working-class,
single mom, who, in the course of the film, is reunited with a daughter she
gave up for adoption when she was 15. Have you played many working-class
women of Cynthia's sort when you were cast in the film?

Ms. BLETHYN: I've certainly been offered a lot of working-class roles since
playing Cynthia. Mostly at the theater I would play middle-class characters.
But, yes, I have played working class before. That's six of one and half a
dozen of the other, really. But since I made "Secrets & Lies," most of the
scripts I received, film scripts, were for unfortunate women who cried a lot.
But I didn't think I could (unintelligible).

BOGAEV: She does do a lot of that in the film.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes. She's such a sad lady, mm.

BOGAEV: Mike Leigh is well known for his ensemble style of producing a film.
He casts actors he wants, and then you all develop the character through
months and months of workshops. What did you know about your character,
Cynthia, when you arrived for rehearsals the first day of "Secrets & Lies"?

Ms. BLETHYN: I knew absolutely nothing about her. She didn't exist when I
arrived, and I invented her with Mike Leigh. In fact, when you embark on an
engagement with Mike Leigh, you have absolutely no idea what sort of role
you're going to be playing at all. I could have been playing a duchess for
all I knew. Neither are we given a story line. We know absolutely nothing,
and that's not just at the beginning; that's throughout the engagement.

I have to say I didn't know fully what the film was about until I went to see
it in a cinema. An actor's only responsibility is to the character they are
creating and to any other character they might come into contact with. So,
obviously, I had seen a cast list. I didn't know everybody on the cast list,
so I didn't get to meet a lot of them. And so when Cynthia goes to meet the
daughter she gave up for adoption 27 years earlier, I had absolutely no idea
whatsoever who was going to turn up, if anybody. That was a total shock.

BOGAEV: Now I want to talk about that scene where you meet your daughter, but
before we do, I'm curious how you begin at the beginning to develop the
character. Do you start in chronological order and start with the young back
story of a character named Cynthia?

Ms. BLETHYN: Yeah. Yeah. There is no back story, but you are right, the
character is created totally chronologically. And having found a starting
point--and that could be anything at all, just one particular
characteristic--her generosity for instance. I don't think it was that, but
that could be something. And then you start from the year dot. And then when
you get to age four, after maybe six weeks or so of working with Mike Leigh,
sort of discovering this woman, you would build her history in the minutest of
detail.

For instance, what was the wallpaper like in her bedroom? What was the view
from the window? What sounds would be coming from the kitchen? Who else
would be in the house at that time of day? And this is from, like, age four.
Would Father have gone to work yet? What was the bed linen like? And all
these things so that when you progress, it's totally chronologically. The
character is bringing a history with her.

BOGAEV: Let's play the scene from "Secrets & Lies" in which Cynthia meets her
daughter Hortense for the first time. And this is her daughter who she gave
away at birth and never even held her, didn't ever see her.

Ms. BLETHYN: That's right, didn't see her.

BOGAEV: They agree to talk in a tearoom, coffeehouse. Cynthia doesn't
believe Hortense is her daughter because Hortense is black.

(Soundbite from "Secrets & Lies")

Ms. BLETHYN (As Cynthia): Now you shouldn't go raising your oats like that.
It ain't fair.

Unidentified Woman: Is this your signature?

Ms. BLETHYN: This is stupid. I don't understand it. I mean, I can't be
your mother, can I?

HORTENSE: Why not?

Ms. BLETHYN: Well, look at me.

HORTENSE: What?

Ms. BLETHYN: Listen, I don't mean nothing by it, darling, but I ain't never
been with a black man in my life. No disrespect or nothing. I'd have
remembered, wouldn't I? Oh, bloody hell. Oh, Jesus Christ Almighty.

(End of soundbite)

BOGAEV: That's a scene from "Secrets & Lies," which starred my guest Brenda
Blethyn. So--and, of course, in that pause in the clip, that's really your
face doing the acting when you're suddenly remembering, I suppose, a one-night
stand.

Ms. BLETHYN: That's right. Yes. See, that's what I mean. In that long
pause when she's working out--because for 27 years, she thought the father was
somebody else, somebody--a white man who she'd been working with all that time
earlier. And so in that pause, she's working out what could have happened in
that time. Who possibly could it have been? And then she remembers an
incident in that pause that tells her that probably she is her daughter. But
it's the shock of it. But I have to channel all that through Cynthia's
memory; not my own. Brenda thinks that'll probably get a laugh. Do you know?
But that third eye up there watching what I'm doing. So it's not method
acting. It's the opposite. You have to be totally objective about what we're
doing all the time.

BOGAEV: How then does Leigh's technique stretch you as an actor or change you
as an actor?

Ms. BLETHYN: Well, I have to say I worked with Mike Leigh, first of all, on
a film for the BBC called "Grown-Ups" in 1980. And after working with him on
that, I realized that everything I had done beforehand I'd been really lazy
on. And so I--on everything I do now, on every scripted piece--I mean, mostly
I do work on scripted work, and I employ some of his technique. I have to
work out a back history for the character. If the writer's around, I will
consult with him. Or if he's not, I will--I have to know how the character
arrived at page one. Where have they been until page one?

For instance, in "Saving Grace," I open up at page one and here she is in her
mid-40s. So I read the script, I know what the script is, but how did she
arrive at page one? What mood is she in at the top of page one? Did she have
a good night's sleep? And I want to know where she's been for 45 years. And
so it's important for me to work that out. I might not share it with anybody,
but I need to know it for myself to know what makes the woman tick.

BOGAEV: Brenda Blethyn. Blethyn plays Mrs. Van Pels in the new ABC
miniseries "Anne Frank." Part one airs Sunday night at 9. We'll continue our
conversation after the break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

BOGAEV: My guest is actress Brenda Blethyn. She's known for her roles in
such films as "Secrets & Lies," "Little Voice" and her new film is "Saving
Grace." You played another working-class single mom in "Little Voice," with
Jane Horrocks.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes.

BOGAEV: This time, it's more of the gin-swilling, tarty variety, Mari. Let's
give people a taste of her. Here she is remembering her good times with Ray
Say, a sleazy nightclub talent agent who wants to exploit Mari's daughter's
singing talent. In this scene, she's talking to her friend Sadie in the
tearoom.

(Soundbite from "Little Voice")

Ms. BLETHYN (As Mari): Sadie, what a night I had me last night, eh. What a
friggin' championship night. You should have seen me, queen for a night.
Well, you'll never guess who. Ray Say. Ray "Friggin'" Say. You know him.
He's agent to the stars, king of cabaret, manager of miracles. He's down at
Mr. Boo's nightclub all the time, that fat, slight look of Elvis about him.
You know him. Everyone knows him. And he knows everyone. It was Mr. Boo
himself introduced us the other night. In two seconds I said--I fib you
not--two seconds and he had his hands on me ass. My ass. My golden old ass
in Ray Say's hands. But he stands there, telling jokes to Mr. Boo. Well, I
saw him again last night. Oh, the music was in our heads, in our heads and in
his wandering hands. You'll make ...(unintelligible) the name Ray Say. It's
one of them lovable (censored) types driving me around in his lovable
(censored) automobile. He motored me around about a million miles an hour, me
ass and me mouth and his hands up me skirt and me mind on his meat and veg.

(End of soundbite)

BOGAEV: That must have been such great fun. Is that character a staple of
British comedy? The blousy, aging party girl? `Give us your lips, you, and
double me palpitations.'

Ms. BLETHYN: `Give us your lips, you.' She's a staple of British life. I
don't know--particularly in the north of England. There are very colorful
characters in the north and they're much more social beings and I love being
in the north of England. They're really nice people, much more friendly. In
fact, I was watching a documentary the other night on the television and it
was full of people like Mari. Think it's from Bradford or somewhere like that
up north. Yes, people like her do exist. I have to say if I saw her coming
towards me down the street, I'd have to cross the road. And she would
frighten me. She's--yeah. But it was fun to play her, I must say. And it
was fabulous working with Michael Caine and Jane Horrocks.

BOGAEV: You wear some hideous outfits in this movie, I have to say.

Ms. BLETHYN: All my own. Not really. I'm joking.

BOGAEV: Is it tough to appear on screen in these tight, awful knit, clashing
colors and slutty type things.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yeah. Barbara, I'm often asked that. How do I feel when I see
myself looking so awful? And my answer is I don't see myself. I'm sitting
here in the studio in London in an Armani suit and...

BOGAEV: Bless your soul.

Ms. BLETHYN: ...I see her. I see Cynthia. I'm not playing me, I'm playing
somebody else and it's her problems I sympathize with. I think, `Oh, God,
you're your own worst enemy, Mari; don't wear those things. They look
dreadful. Don't pull that belt in so tight. You'd probably look better if
you didn't. Let the hem down, won't you? And leave those awful pantyhose
alone.' Yeah, I think the same as other people do watching it, because I
don't see me at all. I see her, that sad, unfortunate, desperate person.

BOGAEV: Michael Caine plays Ray in "Little Voice."

Ms. BLETHYN: Yeah.

BOGAEV: He's also Mari's love interest. I think Michael Caine is just a
wonderful actor.

Ms. BLETHYN: So do I.

BOGAEV: Just the true professional.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes.

BOGAEV: Had you ever worked with him before?

Ms. BLETHYN: No, I hadn't worked with Michael Caine and I have to say I was
a little apprehensive when I turned up there to work with him because he's--I
mean, he's so fabulous. I've grown up thinking, `What a wonderful actor he
is.' And here I am, I mean, playing these raunchy scenes with him. And I
thought he might pull rank and want the focus of attention on him and I would
feel compromised. But not in the least. He was only concerned, as I was,
with the scene working and not in putting focus. If the scene works, it all
works and not with wanting the focus of attention on him at all. And we had
the greatest respect for each other and it was very, very enjoyable.

BOGAEV: I think the first scene you filmed with Michael Caine you had to leap
on him and smother him with kisses.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yes. Yes, it's the one where she runs out of the house and she
leaps on him and kisses him. And, yes, I think Mark Herman did that
deliberately to sort of cut the ice a little for the more raunchy scenes later
on.

BOGAEV: Apparently you...

Ms. BLETHYN: And we laughed a lot about it.

BOGAEV: You kept messing up.

Ms. BLETHYN: Yeah.

BOGAEV: You had to do it over and over and over.

Ms. BLETHYN: Deliberately, right?

BOGAEV: Brenda Blethyn, I want to thank you very much for talking with me
today on FRESH AIR.

Ms. BLETHYN: It's totally my pleasure, Barbara. Thank you.

BOGAEV: Brenda Blethyn. She plays Mrs. Van Pells in the new ABC miniseries
"Anne Frank." Part one airs Sunday night at 9. Coming up, we conclude our
Avant Garde Made Easy series with the music of Misha Mengelberg. This is
FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Profile: Jazz innovations of pianist and composer Misha Mengelberg
BARBARA BOGAEV, host:

One point jazz critic Kevin Whitehead has emphasized in his series on jazz
mavericks is that innovators don't deny the jazz tradition, but build on what
came before them. The so-called avante garde itself has had a profound
influence on jazz and other music, at home and abroad. By way of
illustration, Kevin concludes his Avant Garde Made Easy series with a profile
of Dutch pianist and jazz and classical composer Misha Mengelberg. He
frequently works with American improvisers, but Mengelberg's main vehicle is
the nine-piece group known as ICP, the Instant Composers Pool Orchestra.

(Soundbite of music)

KEVIN WHITEHEAD reporting:

Misha Mengelberg began improvising and composing when he was very young. From
the first, he had a gift for melody. The records he liked best were by
Stravinsky and Ellington. You could dance to them. Stravinsky gave him an
ear for funny-sounding chords, so when he heard Thelonious Monk in the early
'50s, he got the point right way, especially how much fun you could have
disguising very smart music as amateurish bumbling. You can hear Monk's
influence on Mengelberg's first LP, Eric Dolph's "Last Date," from 1964.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: That's from Misha Mengelberg's "Hypochristmutreefuzz." By then
he'd graduated from The Hague Conservatory and was composing for classical
musicians and for jazz groups, but in very different styles. Then free jazz
hit Europe and opened up a new world of possibility. Pianist Cecil Taylor's
high energy and noisy harmony helped Mengelberg reconcile his abstract
composing and boisterous jazz. But Misha's version was more playful.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: Misha Mengelberg, with drummer Han Bennink and German saxophonist
Peter Brotzmann. All three were key players on the European free scene that
emerged in the wake of the American one. Albert Ayler's composing was another
catalyst. If a black saxophonist from Cleveland could write himself what
sounded like Bavarian folk tunes, Europeans could also try on more continental
material. They remade free jazz in their own image.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: Ab Baars on tenor sax. Some commentators say European improvised
music rejected jazz, but jazz's way of transforming American vernaculars from
ragtime to show tunes was a guide to how the Euros might proceed, and
Mengelberg, for one, has often revisited the music of old idols Ellington and
Monk.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: The strings and jazz horns in Mengelberg's Pocket Orchestra
ICP(ph) represent the composer's two musical worlds. He's also a great chess
player who sees music as a game, the way improvising jazz licks to fit over
chord changes is a game. In the 1960s, Mengelberg, like other classical
composers, wrote game pieces. Instead of a score, musicians were given
instructions how to react to or even challenge what someone else played.
Later, Misha started using games and other compositional procedures in ICP,
helping improvisers think like instant composers. He conducted improvising,
as Sun Ra and others had, and showed his musicians how to stretch forms in
various ways, or destroy them from within using what he calls `viruses,' or
improvise their way up to a theme, not just away from it.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: Mengelberg's improvising informs his composing, too. A lot of
catchy ICP tunes started out as melodies he invented on a gig. One fruitful
source of material, a sort of musical chess game, is Mengelberg's duo with his
alter ego, Han Bennink, where each tries to subvert the other.

(Soundbite of piano-drum duet)

WHITEHEAD: That sort of willful intransigence carries over into Mengelberg's
classical composing. An episode in his orchestra suite "Underway" conjures up
Bennink's stubborn percussion and Misha's anti-virtuoso, one-finger piano.

(Soundbite of music)

WHITEHEAD: Improvisation was almost extinct in Western art music before jazz
brought it back. Misha Mengelberg's work reminds us that the improvisational
impulse jazz unleashed takes many forms, some far from obvious. His stuff
offers yet more evidence that African-American music changed nearly everyone's
sound in the 20th century. Think of it: Even Dutch composers play the blues.

BOGAEV: Kevin Whitehead's Avant Garde Made Easy series can be found on the
FRESH AIR Web site.

(Credits)

BOGAEV: Terry Gross returns on Monday. I'm Barbara Bogaev.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.