Gifts for Children that You'll Love As Well.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: DECEMBER 09, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 120901np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: "The Cradle Will Rock": An Interview with Tim Robbins
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is Tim Robbins, the star of such films as "Arlington Road," "The Player," "Bob Roberts," "Bull Durham," and "The Shawshank Redemption." He wrote and directed "Dead Man Walking," "Bob Roberts," and the new film, "Cradle Will Rock."

The new film is about the making of the 1937 musical, "The Cradle Will Rock," which was written by Marc Blitzstein, directed by Orson Welles, and produced by the Federal Theater Project, which was created as part of FDR's New Deal to put theater people back to work and bring affordable theater to the public.

The story line of Blitzstein's musical was about union activists demanding their rights in a town run by big steel. Tim Robbins' movie tells the story of this production and the confrontation it provoked between the players and the government, a story that has become part of theater lore.

The movie stars John Turturro, Emily Watson, Susan Sarandon, John Cusack, Vanessa Redgrave, and Bill Murray. Here's an excerpt from the cast recording of the 1938 Broadway production of "The Cradle Will Rock" featuring Howard da Silva.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "THE CRADLE WILL ROCK," HOWARD DA SILVA)

GROSS: That was the composer Marc Blitzstein at the piano. Here's that song from the sound track of Tim Robbins' new movie, "Cradle Will Rock."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "THE CRADLE WILL ROCK")

GROSS: Tim Robbins, welcome to FRESH AIR.

TIM ROBBINS, "THE CRADLE WILL ROCK": Thank you, Terry.

GROSS: How were you introduced to the musical, "The Cradle Will Rock," and why did you want to make a film about the making of it?

ROBBINS: A couple of producers brought this story to me and told me this story, of the first public performance of "The Cradle Will Rock," and -- which was -- I had never heard about. I had studied theater in college, and I'd never been told this story, which I found remarkable in itself.

But it was such an amazing evening, such an inspiring performance that I felt like it had to be the end of a movie, it had to be the climax of a movie. And so my job in writing "Cradle Will Rock" was really working backwards, filling in the spaces. How did we get to that theater on that June night in 1937?

GROSS: "The Cradle Will Rock" was produced by a project within the Federal Theater Project that was run by Orson Welles and John Houseman. And this musical was set to open on June 16, 1937, but when the actors showed up, the theater was locked, and they weren't allowed in. The audience wasn't allowed in. What were the reasons that the theater was locked that night?

ROBBINS: Well, it was surrounded by armed troops. They had shut the theater down. The reason being, I think it was a very volatile time, and the content of the play had to do with a labor strike. A week before that, there had been some terrible violence during a labor strike the Midwest, a couple of labor strikes in the Midwest, resulting in deaths and injuries.

And it was a particularly volatile time. And so I believe the government, under a different reason, of course, but they closed it down, because I thought they thought the play was incendiary and would have caused more problems.

So Welles and Houseman get to this theater, and being the young, brash, wonderful kind of arrogant, beautifully talented people that they were, decided to sneak into the back of the theater and use the telephones to find a different theater.

So they got down there and manned this kind of command central, as actors and musicians started to show up in this backstage dressing room, and eventually find a different theater uptown. Now, they have 1,000 people coming to that performance that evening at the original theater. And they find this new theater 20 blocks uptown.

And by this time, they've also realized that the actors and musicians have been forbidden from performing by their unions. They've been forbidden from performing this pro-labor play by their unions.

So the deep irony of that, and this terrible -- you know, now they've got a theater, but they have got no one to perform the play. So they turn to Marc Blitzstein, the composer, and they say, "Will you do it all by yourself, will you perform all of the parts?" And he said, "Yes, I'll do it." He wasn't a member of a union, he felt he could do it.

So he and Welles and Houseman and some of the actors start marching uptown with 1,000 people in tow. And they get to this new theater, and Welles introduces Blitzstein, and Blitzstein starts to do the play by himself.

GROSS: Is this your first time directing a musical? Your movie isn't a musical per se, but it's about the making of a musical, and you restage parts of the musical within the film.

ROBBINS: Yes, it's actually -- "Bob Roberts" was kind of a musical in a way too.

GROSS: That's true. That's true.

ROBBINS: Music's always been really important for me. I would -- you know, I think it's difficult to do the musical as a musical on film, like all of a sudden a character breaks character and starts to sing. You know, it's always a weird reality. So I've -- I'm always looking for ways that you can incorporate music in a reality-based way.

How does a -- you know, a song happens on film that is not a character stepping out of his character to sing "I love you" to somebody?

GROSS: Well, that's why the backstage musical has always been such a good device in movies.

ROBBINS: Yes, yes.

GROSS: And I guess, in a way, that's what your movie...

ROBBINS: And so I'm...

GROSS: ... is, it's a...

ROBBINS: Believe me, I watched all of them.

GROSS: ... politicized backstage musical. You watched all of them to make it?

ROBBINS: Oh, yes, I love the Busby Berkeley musicals...

GROSS: Those were great.

ROBBINS: ... and I also drew a lot of inspiration from the screwball comedies of the '30s, the Capra, Sturgess, Howard Hawks kind of style of film.

GROSS: But did...

ROBBINS: The wonderful, quick dialogue and witty repartee, and wonderfully eccentric characters, mixed in with a realism of the society around them, you know, people -- there was an acknowledgment of what was going on in the '30s in those films. And I've always found that interesting, because you do have a filmmaker that is aware. They're not ignoring the society around them.

I think that happens an awful lot today, is that you have comedies, and they're sometimes quite funny, but they ignore what's going on in the society. And in fact, maybe those are the political films, the ones that ignore this -- the social and the economic and the political.

GROSS: Tim Robbins is my guest, and he wrote and directed the new movie "Cradle Will Rock."

Now, a lot of "Cradle Will Rock" is about censorship, overt and veiled forms of censorship. And I'm wondering if you had any direct dealings with any of your work with censorship or with a movie company backing out of something because it was too hot to handle, too controversial?

ROBBINS: I've been very, very fortunate. I've never been, I believe, censored. I don't think I really have a right to complain about anything. I have a very healthy career, I get to work when I want to, I get paid well. When I direct, I'm able to determine the content of what I do, and I am able to have final cut and a big say in the way it's distributed. And I've had nothing but support from the people I've worked with.

So I can't really say that I've been censored. I think, though, that what's working these days is a more kind of clever kind of suppression of information than out and out censorship. I don't think there's anyone that's really trying to close things down, other than some politicians for, you know, to put on a show, that -- which they know is futile, but they figure they'll get a lot of press by doing it.

I think there's more suppression of creativity in a more subtle form of censorship, which has to do with, you know, limiting access.

GROSS: I want to ask you a question about the historical accuracy of the movie. There's several different stories that are happening simultaneously in your film. One is the story of the musical, "The Cradle Will Rock."

Another is a story of how Nelson Rockefeller commissioned the artist Diego Rivera to paint a mural for Rockefeller Center that was being built. And Diego Rivera creates this really political mural with a picture of Lenin within the mural. And Rockefeller has it kind of blasted away. I mean, he tears apart -- has his people tear apart the mural, because it's too left-wing.

And the "Cradle Will Rock" story and the Diego Rivera mural story actually happened several years apart.

ROBBINS: Right.

GROSS: But they're happening simultaneously in your movie.

ROBBINS: Right.

GROSS: And I'm wondering why you felt the need to make them so simultaneous.

ROBBINS: Well, I think that's an artistic license you have to take when you're dealing with things that are from the past and, you know, based in reality. But at the very beginning of the movie, the first credit says, "A Mostly True Story." And I put that in there because there -- you have to create fiction in a historical epic of this nature. Even if you say you don't, you are, because you can't possibly have known what happened in the back rooms and what conversations were verbatim. You have to use your imagination to fill in the spaces.

Now, their difference in years was -- there was a four-year difference. Nineteen thirty-two is when the mural fiasco happened, and 1936 is when the Federal Theater in 1937 (inaudible) "Cradle Will Rock." I figured, you know, listen, if you really want to be historically accurate about this, we could do some kind of -- we could either ignore the fact that there were these two very similar stories of censorship and creative expression, or we could, you know, do some kind of weirdness with time and make it really accurate, so that everyone knows that we have been completely to-the-letter accurate.

I felt it was OK to take the license, as I did with other parts of the story. I mean, you -- we don't know for sure that Marion Davies wound up at a table at 21 Club partying with Orson Welles and John Houseman as Hearst looks on. We don't know for sure a lot of these things. We don't know if Nelson Rockefeller wound up dancing with the models in Diego's studio.

But I think it's in a sense of fun and in a sense of just -- you know, a sense of creativity and imagination that you fill in the gaps with this kind of story.

GROSS: You are a film star and director who has occasionally used your visibility to call attention to political issues, whether it's, you know, at the Academy Awards or through your movies. I mean, "Dead Man Walking" calls attention to the death penalty, "Bob Roberts" to a certain form of politician and political campaign, and your new movie is about, you know, a musical that arose from the labor movement and that was about the labor movement.

And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you see the nature of celebrity and political issues, you know, like using your stature to call attention to issues that you think are important.

ROBBINS: Well...

GROSS: Where are the parameters of -- where do you feel like it's appropriate, and where do you feel it's kind of inappropriate?

ROBBINS: I don't think it's -- I don't think it should be a requirement. Certainly -- I feel like I'm doing what I've always done, from a very early age I was -- have been aware of what's going on around me and in -- you know, I remember very early on being aware of the civil rights movement, the war in Vietnam.

So I guess the way I would think about it was, you know, why should I change because I became famous, you know? A lot of people do. A lot of people get very safe and try to make their career -- advance their career and their public actions and refuse to acknowledge things that got them where they are, and refuse to act the same way that they had always been acting.

I feel like I'm just, you know, basically being honest and being true to who I am. No, that doesn't mean every celebrity should be doing what I occasionally do, which is try to call attention to things that don't get the attention in the media. Listen, if we were living in a perfect world, I'd be able to go and, you know, live completely talking about my shoes and my hair style.

But we don't live in a world where media goes and covers certain events, unless celebrities are there. That's the tragedy, is that it takes celebrities to get the media interested in certain causes. And as long as that's the way things are run, then I believe it's a personal responsibility for some of us to do that, to call attention to these people that are working really hard to try to get attention, try to make the world a better place.

GROSS: My guest is Tim Robbins. He wrote and directed the new film "Cradle Will Rock." More after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: My guest is Tim Robbins, and he wrote and directed the new film "Cradle Will Rock."

I'd like to go back and talk a little bit about some of your other films as well. And since we're in the middle of a political campaign, I thought we could start with "Bob Roberts," which you directed and starred in. This is a film about a folk-singing right-wing born-again candidate for Senate, and the movie is a mockumentary, a fake documentary. Let me play a short excerpt.

(AUDIO CLIP, "BOB ROBERTS")

ACTOR: 'Tis the day (ph)!

SINGER (SINGING): I don't have a house, I don't have a car, (inaudible) drunk in a bar. I want to be rich, I don't (inaudible), (inaudible) handout, (inaudible).

ANNOUNCER: Bob Roberts, fencing enthusiast, poet, folk singer, businessman, senatorial candidate. This controversial yet extraordinarily popular entertainer first appeared on the music scene three years ago with his debut album "The Free-Wheelin' Bob Roberts." And despite being assailed by the music critics as a corrupt, unfair diatribe against the '60s, the album, remarkably, soared to number 23 on the "Billboard" charts.

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Backed by a team of novices, without the support of a major record label, relying on word of mouth and his own team of businessmen and associates, who seem more suited to a townhouse than a tour bus, Roberts created a niche for himself in a business that at first had contemptuously rejected him.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Bob Roberts is -- was a folk-singing candidate, and your new movie is a backstage musical. Did you do much singing onstage yourself, either in theater or in clubs?

ROBBINS: Well, I can say that's probably one of the most terrifying things for me is to stand on stage alone, you know. It was OK with Bob because I -- "Bob Roberts" because I had a character to hide behind. But it's -- I always am terribly afraid that I'm going to screw up the chords, and I usually do when I'm playing alone on stage. So...

But I love singing, and I feel like I -- there's a frustrated rock and roller in me somewhere.

GROSS: Did you play in bands?

ROBBINS: No, I just -- I, you know, sat in with friends and jammed and things like that and had fun that way. I have some singer friends that, you know, I mess around with sometimes, and -- but, you know, it's -- who wants to see another actor turned rock and roller? I mean, (laughs) they'd be sharpening their knives for that one, I think.

GROSS: We talked a little bit the last time you were on the show about how your father was a member of the folk group The Highwaymen in the early '60s, and they had the hits "Michael Row Your Boat Ashore" and "Cotton Fields." Did they see themselves as political?

ROBBINS: Well, I don't believe so. I mean, I think a certain amount -- well, pretty much everyone in folk at the time was doing something with -- of content, you know, there was -- there were certain songs that made their way through every group. And it was very much a -- I don't think you really had -- well, maybe yo had, like, a few of the more top kind of groups that avoided political things at all costs, and...

GROSS: Did...

ROBBINS: ... probably stayed on top because of that.

GROSS: Did you get taken to singalongs as a kid?

ROBBINS: I did. I got -- I remember one of my first memories was my dad on stage, and I remember the whole audience singing along with the Highwaymen. And I felt, Wow, that's really great, you know, my dad's doing that, you know. And it's, you know, corny, but it's -- it was inspiring. It was nice to hear.

GROSS: I used to feel so uncomfortable at singalongs.

ROBBINS: (laughs)

GROSS: Is there -- if you don't sing, then you're considered a real, like, you know, stick-in-the-mud, and if you do sing, it's -- well, it can be very embarrassing.

ROBBINS: Well, you're just supposed to move your lips.

GROSS: That's right.

ROBBINS: it's just -- you lip synch.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Did you grow up in Greenwich Village?

ROBBINS: Uh-huh.

GROSS: Now, I mean, did you -- when you were growing up in the Village, and, I imagine, a comparatively bohemian life, did you ever want to be, you know, in a more mainstream kind of family?

ROBBINS: Well, I didn't know any different, so -- and we weren't that, you know, bohemian. We were Catholics, and I went to school every day with a little tie, and I was an altar boy, and so -- But we were living in a progressive area, and it was a progressive parish. But it wasn't like we were, you know, sitting around smoking a hookah, you know.

GROSS: (laughs)

ROBBINS: But it was a great way to grow up, I have to say, in retrospect. I didn't know it until I went away how special it was. For me, it was normal. But I was surrounded by wonderful eccentricity and creativity and weirdness, and I -- and part of me, part of the base, I guess, of who I am is centered in that kind of eccentricity.

Walking down the street to go to the park to play baseball, I was passing some pretty colorful characters. So all of that's in my subconscious, you know. I was just a kid wanting to play baseball, but I was passing some of the, you know, most creative and weird people in the country at the time, (inaudible), so -- they'd come to Greenwich Village.

GROSS: Tim Robbins will be back in the second half of the show. He wrote and directed the new film "Cradle Will Rock," about the making of the 1937 pro-labor musical "The Cradle Will Rock." From the sound track of the movie, here's Emily Watson singing one of the songs from the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(AUDIO CLIP, "THE CRADLE WILL ROCK, EMILY WATSON)

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Tim Robbins. He starred in "Arlington Road," "The Shawshank Redemption," "The Player," "Bob Roberts," and "Bull Durham." He wrote and directed "Dead Man Walking" and the new film, "Cradle Will Rock."

Let's get to another one of your movies. This is one that you starred in, "The Player," directed by Robert Altman. It's a great satire of the movie business, and you're a studio executive who everyone in the industry comes to to pitch their film ideas. And here's a clip where you're getting pitched by director Alan Rudolph.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE PLAYER")

ROBBINS: What's your pitch?

ALAN RUDOLPH, ACTOR: (inaudible), does political scare you?

ROBBINS: Political doesn't scare me. Radical political scares me. Political political scares me.

RUDOLPH: This is politely politically radical. But it's...

ROBBINS: Is it funny?

RUDOLPH: It's funny, it's funny.

ROBBINS: It's a funny political thing.

RUDOLPH: It's a funny -- and it's a thriller, too.

ROBBINS: It's a thriller.

RUDOLPH: And it's all at once.

ROBBINS: So what's the story?

RUDOLPH: Well, I want Bruce Willis. I think I can talk to him. It's a story about a senator, a bad guy senator at first. He's traveling around the country on the country's dime, you know, like that Sununu guy used to.

ROBBINS: I see, so it's sort of a cynical political thriller comedy...

RUDOLPH: Yes, but it's got a heart in the right spot.

ROBBINS: Go on.

RUDOLPH: And anyway, he has an accident.

ROBBINS: An accident?

RUDOLPH: Yes, and he becomes clairvoyant, like a psychic.

ROBBINS: Oh, I see.

RUDOLPH: Yes. So...

ROBBINS: So it's kind of a psychic political thriller comedy with a heart.

RUDOLPH: With a heart. And not unlike "Ghost" meets "Manchurian Candidate."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Well, Tim Robbins, I'm sure you've been in a lot of situations like this, probably on either end, in a way. And I want to ask you if you've been exposed to, you know, what Alan Rudolph says when he starts this pitch. He says, "Does political thriller scare you?" the idea of a political thriller. Have you pitched political ideas to executors thinking, like, Oh, God, this is really going to terrify them, it's just going to be too political for them?

ROBBINS: Well, I have been really -- I've never pitched. I've always had a script in hand, and they've either accepted it or rejected it. I've definitely been rejected. As a matter of fact, I remember when "Bob Roberts" came out, I got calls from certain moguls that shall remain nameless who said, you know, We thought -- it's such a great movie. Your next movie, want to see that script, you know, I want to be the first one to see it. Will you show it to me first?

And I did show these people the script, and they couldn't have been less interested in "Dead Man Walking." And then -- and "Dead Man Walking" came out, and the same people, almost to the T, called and said, I want to see your next script. And I showed them "Cradle Will Rock." Couldn't be less interested.

So -- but once in a while, you get lucky. And I was lucky with the working title and Polygram and people that realized that I could do what I -- you know, that I could pull it off, you know, "Dead Man Walking." And with "Cradle" I was lucky to have Joe Roth understand the material and give me the money from Disney.

GROSS: Did playing a studio executive in "The Player" make you empathize any more with the executives who were passing judgment on you?

ROBBINS: Not really.

GROSS: (laughs)

ROBBINS: Actually, Altman came up to me at the premier and he said, "You know, we've been too nice."

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: Well, I don't know.

ROBBINS: But, no, I -- you know, it's -- it must be a very difficult job. I do have a sympathy for that, because it's -- there -- you know, it is a creative job, because you're making creative decisions. But you're not actually being creative in doing it, in exercising it, making the thing happen.

They -- but then again, you know, how much sympathy can you have? I mean, because they are -- they have the potential to do a lot of great things, and sometimes it just gets squandered. Sometimes it just becomes about box office and names. And they don't take the opportunity when presented with it to do something a little bit risky and take a little bit of that profit and turn it into gold, you know?

GROSS: We mentioned that after the success of "Bob Roberts," executives asked to see your next script, and you showed them "Dead Man Walking," and the moguls turned it down. Let's hear a scene from "Dead Man Walking." And this is based on a true story by Sister Helen Prejean, who works with prisoners on death row. And in this scene, she first meets a prisoner on death row, a convicted murderer, played by Sean Penn.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "DEAD MAN WALKING")

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Yes, well, I got your letter. I seen "Helen" on it, and I thought, my first ex-old lady. Thomas ripped it up. She turned me in, called the cops. Orphaned our kid, the stupid bitch.

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: You've got a kid.

PENN: Yes, (inaudible) a kid.

SARANDON: Girl or boy?

PENN: Girl.

SARANDON: What's her name?

PENN: You ask a lot of questions.

SARANDON: I don't know you.

PENN: Yes, well, never mind.

(inaudible), you say, you work with poor people? Your daddy was a lawyer? You come from money, don't you?

SARANDON: Some.

PENN: You (inaudible) St. Thomas projects? (inaudible), I don't know who's crazier, you or me.

SARANDON: I live where I work.

PENN: Out in the slum.

SARANDON: What about you?

PENN: I live here.

SARANDON: You were brought up poor?

PENN: Ain't nobody with money on death row.

SARANDON: Then you and I have something in common.

PENN: What's that?

SARANDON: We both live with the poor.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Tim Robbins, "Dead Man Walking" was based on true stories of several people. And I imagine that you felt you wanted to get everything right, not only for the sake of the movie but for the sake of the feelings of the people involved here, including the parents of the people who were murdered by the characters that Sean Penn is a composite of.

And I'm wondering if you were surprised by some of the things that you discovered in actually meeting with people who the story is based on, you know, a woman who's raped, the parents of a woman who was killed, Sister Helen Prejean. Were there things that you were, just, like, emotionally surprised by?

ROBBINS: Well, the -- yes, constantly with that movie. The whole experience was an incredible learning experience. I wanted to show -- I didn't want to be condescending about the murder victims' families. There's such a terrible tragedy that they go through, and I wanted to give them a dignity and -- which they have. They're not -- they're very -- they have a -- they have a -- they have a point, you know. There is something in everyone's nature that wants to protect the ones we love, and if there's -- if there -- the ones that are (inaudible) -- we love safety is compromised, or if, God forbid, there is a tragedy, we want to avenge it.

The question then becomes, you know, like, who, who avenges it, and who is avenged? And I'm very uncomfortable with the government making those decisions, because ultimately it's always an economic decision. You know, like he says in that scene, you don't find any rich people on death row. So it's an arbitrary decision.

And it's never going to be fair. And as long as you have that, it's going to be -- you know, unfair system.

I wouldn't -- even if they were to execute rich people I wouldn't condone it, because I don't believe in crossing that line. I don't believe in violence, I don't believe in any kind of violence.

GROSS: What kind of discussions did you have with Sean Penn about how to portray the killer? And even how he would look? I mean, the goatee and the kind of slicked-back, tall pompadour seemed so right for the character.

ROBBINS: Yes, it's -- I think Sean had had a little experience in prison, so he'd -- he took that and worked with that. The hair is a very specific thing. I mean, it is something that happens in prison. Guys have a lot of time on their hands, and they do spend it on their hair, you know, that's -- it's not unusual to find a guy with a kind of pompadour.

Sean is an amazing actor. He's really -- I think when you're watching him work, you're watching a vivisection in a lot of ways. You know, he's really opening himself up in a very dangerous and personal way, as is Susan. I mean, watching the two of them together was just a beautiful thing. You know, our job was to make sure that they had an environment to do what they do best, and not get in the way. And it was really, you know -- what a wonderful experience it was to watch them work together!

GROSS: Well, let me play a scene from a film in which you met Susan Sarandon. And this is a scene from "Bull Durham," in which you play a kind of goofy pitcher, (laughs) a pitcher who's very good but kind of personally goofy. And Susan Sarandon is an experienced woman who usually takes on a new player each year and becomes their mentor, both kind of in baseball and in intimacy as well.

And so here's a scene in which she's giving you directions in pitching.

(AUDIO CLIP, "BULL DURHAM")

SARANDON: (inaudible) come on, fire one in here.

ROBBINS: This is ridiculous. I'm a professional.

SARANDON: Will you just give it a try and lean in?

Thank you.

Now, I want you to breathe through your eyelids.

ROBBINS: My eyelids?

ROBBINS: Yes, like the lava lizards of the Galapagos Islands. See, there are some lizards, they have (inaudible) behind their heads so they can see backwards. Haven't you ever noticed how Fernando Boswell, he just doesn't even look when he pitches? He's a Mayan Indian. Or an Aztec. I forget which one, I get them confused.

ROBBINS: So do I.

SARANDON: Stand up for a second. Now, I want you to be aware of the sharper (ph) connection between your feet and your testicles.

ROBBINS: Shock...

SARANDON: Yes, your right leg and your left testicle, and your left leg and your right testicle.

ROBBINS: (inaudible)

SARANDON: I bet you do.

ROBBINS: (inaudible), come on, I'm tired of hearing this.

SARANDON: All right. Fire one in there, come on!

ROBBINS: OK.

SARANDON: You're patronizing me, and I will not be patronized.

ROBBINS: If I throw too hard, I'm going to hurt the girl.

SARANDON: This girl has handled a lot of pitchers whose records are a lot better than one in seven.

ROBBINS: One in six.

SARANDON: Oh, sorry.

ROBBINS: Give me the goddamn ball.

(sound of glass breaking)

How do you like that?

SARANDON: That was much better. Did you see that? Because your delivery was fully integrated, because you weren't thinking about it, because you were pissed off at me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GROSS: Well, Tim Robbins, he's a kind of goofy character, the pitcher. Was it hard for you to play goofy?

ROBBINS: Oh, no. That was a real pleasure. (laughs) I love that character. It was certainly not hard to dumb down for me, probably because I'm -- at the core, I'm pretty dumb.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: There you go.

ROBBINS: I went to a very kind of specialized high school in New York called Stuyvesant High School. It's in the public school system, but you have to take a test to get in. And, you know, that's how I -- it's a science and math school. And I found out very early on that I was not going to be a Westinghouse scholar. And that's how I...

GROSS: (laughs)

ROBBINS: ... that's how I found theater, you know, as a way to feel good about myself in an otherwise very frustrating academic environment.

GROSS: Did you think you were going to get into science beforehand?

ROBBINS: No, I just -- you know, I had a...

GROSS: It was just a good school?

ROBBINS: Well, you -- it was the school, you know, it was -- God, thank God, you know, because otherwise that -- there (inaudible) -- the public school that I was, you know, my district would have been a -- well, probably a disaster for me, you know. So it was an -- it was a way to stay away from that, and we didn't have the money to go to private school, so...

And I did get a great education there. It's just -- I always felt on the lower rungs of the ladder because there were such brilliant kids there.

GROSS: You've directed Susan Sarandon in several films. In fact, in your new film in which she's in, "Cradle Will Rock," most of the people you're -- many of the people you're directing you've worked with before, John Turturro you first worked with in "Five Corners." Do you like the idea of having a kind of family of actors, people who you are already familiar with an comfortable with?

ROBBINS: Well, yes, I do, but I also like meeting new people. I mean, there's -- I love meeting -- there's so many great talented actors that I would love to work with. And on this film, I got the opportunity to work with Vanessa Redgrave, for example, and Ruben Blades and Cary Elwes and Angus McFadden and Emily Watson, all of whom I hadn't really worked with in the past.

And so it's always, you know -- it's all -- it's such a wonderful profession, because each new project you're involved in brings with it so many new surprises and new people and new opportunities to expand your own perceptions and consciousness.

GROSS: Well, one last question. Was it tempting at all to give yourself a part in "Cradle Will Rock"?

ROBBINS: It was, but I -- it was such a massive undertaking and such an epic and so many things that had to be done, I just felt like I really had to concentrate on orchestrating the chaos. You know, it's keeping -- we're juggling, you know, four or five stories and 20 characters, and it's a lot of balls to keep up in the air, and I just didn't want to be one of those balls that I was keeping up in the air.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

ROBBINS: Well, thank you, Terry.

GROSS: Tim Robbins wrote and directed the new film "Cradle Will Rock," about the making of the 1937 pro-labor musical, "The Cradle Will Rock."

Coming up, books for kids that adults will love too.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Tim Robbins
High: Actor, director, writer Tim Robbins talks about his new film "The Cradle Will Rock," the first film written and directed by Robbins since the Academy Award-winning "Dead Man Walking." "The Cradle Will Rock" is based on the events surrounding the production of a 1937 labor musical, directed by Orson Welles. The play was shut down by a government injunction for the cast's alleged left-wing politics.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Tim Robbins; "The Cradle Will Rock"

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: "The Cradle Will Rock": An Interview with Tim Robbins

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: DECEMBER 09, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 120902NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Childrens' Books That Adults Love
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:40

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

GROSS: Book critic Maureen Corrigan has some gift suggestions for the kids in your life, books. Books that you'll love too.

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BOOK CRITIC: In its annual end-of-year issue, the Sunday ""New York Times" Book Review pronounced that 1999 was just a so-so year for books. Overall, I'd agree, with one huge exception, the category of children's books.

Long after many of us forget who won this year's Nobel Prize for literature -- uh-huh -- we'll know the name Harry Potter. The three best-selling Harry Potter novels by J.K. Rowling, which were published this year, are adored not only by their target audience of 10- and 11-year-olds, but by hordes of adult readers as well.

In fact, the Harry Potter phenomenon has been so extraordinary that it's gotten adults who read children's books to come out of the closet. Even in uptight lawyerly Washington, D.C., where I live, I've seen people on the bus reading the Harry Potter novels, where once only John Grisham held sway.

Such sights got me to wondering about other children's books that appeal to an adult audience. Of course, I thought of the novels of Louisa May Alcott, Lewis Carroll, and Robert Louis Stevenson. But for guidance to less-familiar titles, I went to my local independent bookstore, where the clerks know and love literature.

Yes, yes, sometimes the chain bookstores get lucky and hire such people too. But in a scene straight out of the mediocre movie "You've Got Mail," when I went to buy a copy of Norton Juster's "The Phantom Tollbooth," which the clerk at the independent recommended but didn't have, the clueless children's section clerk at the chain ran a computer search for "Norton Juster's The Phantom Tollbooth," as though the author's name were part of the title.

"The Phantom Tollbooth," my independent bookstore elf assured me, is a steady seller with adults who don't even bother to pretend they're buying it as a gift. First published in 1961, it was reissued in a special paperback anniversary edition three years ago, with illustrations by Jules Pfeiffer and a preface by Maurice Sendak. It has a lot of that magical familiar-world-turned-abruptly-strange quality that readers love about the Harry Potter books.

A boy named Milo, who's bored with life, comes home one day to find a huge package in his room, bearing an envelope that reads, "For Milo, who has plenty of time." Inside is a disassembled genuine turnpike tollbooth, which Milo puts together and then drives his toy car through.

What ensues is a journey that's been rightly compared to that of "Alice in Wonderland," in which Milo rediscovers life's possibilities as he meets the weird, word-playing citizens of places like Dictionopolis and The Land of Expectations, the place you must always go to before you get to where you're going.

A much more brutal journey is the subject of Conrad Richter's "The Light in the Forest," a slim novel that's shelved both in the adult and children's sections of many bookstores. "The Light in the Forest" was first published in 1953, and it's one of those historical adventure tales that educates as it thrills.

Set in 18th century America, the novel tells the story of True Son, a 15-year-old white boy who was kidnapped by Indians when he was a baby and adopted by them, but is now forced to return to his white family.

What's so striking about "The Light in the Forest" is its uncompromising depiction of True Son's caught-between-two-worlds situation. Also, the novel's description of the landscape primeval are as hypnotic as any James Fenimore Cooper rhapsody. Here's a passage about a soggy sojourn True Son and his Indian cousin undertake in the woods.

"They could hear the rain before it reached them, a fine, unmistakable roar in the forest. They lay snug under their upturned dugout, watching the trees drink in the wetness. Some days it fell with a long, soft, beautiful sound through the woods, so light at times they only knew it continued by the bushes delicately nodding.

"After a long day of rain, it seemed that this small dry spot where they lay was the only place left on earth."

Boys, boys, boys. I asked my bookstore Virgil for a girl-power book, and he recommended Dorothy Canfield Fisher's "Understood Betsy," a 1917 classic that's just been reprinted in a pretty new hardcover edition. This is a wonderful story about a sheltered, insecure city girl who's sent to live with her tough-love Vermont relatives. They believe, rightly, that self-esteem develops out of learning how to fend for yourself.

Any overprotective parents out there probably need to read and absorb this novel's wise message of self-reliance at least as much as their kids do.

All three of these very different adult-attractive children's books create a rich, fully realized world pervaded sometimes by humor and in all cases by a real sense of evil and loss.

Speaking of loss, happy and very prosperous holidays to my favorite beleaguered independent bookstore and its staff, who recommended these books.

GROSS: Maureen Corrigan teaches literature at Georgetown University.

Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews Beck's new CD.

This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Maureen Corrigan
High: Book critic Maureen Corrigan tells us her picks of childrens' books that adults love.
Spec: Literature; Children; Families

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Childrens' Books That Adults Love

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: DECEMBER 09, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 120903NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: "Midnight Vultures": A Music Review
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:50

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

GROSS: Twenty-nine-year-old Beck Hansen has created a diverse body of music since he scored a hit with his song "Loser" in 1993. Working with equal interest in folk and hip-hop idioms, Beck has become an emblematic '90s artist, according to our rock critic, Ken Tucker. He has a review of Beck's new CD, "Midnight Vultures."

(AUDIO CLIP, SONG EXCERPT, "MIDNIGHT VULTURES," BECK)

KEN TUCKER, ROCK CRITIC: In a certain sense, "Midnight Vultures" is Beck's version of Prince's 1980 album, "Dirty Mind," ostensibly obsessed with sex but really more concerned with true love, deploying dependable funk rhythms as the basis for a series of unpredictable rock and roll riffs.

This is the CD that captures the geeky white soul man that Beck frequently personifies in his live performances, and much of the time he isn't even a geek.

(AUDIO CLIP, SONG EXCERPT, "MIDNIGHT VULTURES," BECK)

TUCKER: There hasn't been a CD released all year that burst with the unironic glee that "Midnight Vultures" emanates. It's obviously an extremely produced record. Beck layers his own vocals and keyboards and taps into prime George Clinton-style funk, complete with a close approximation of Clinton's hoarse yelling on a cut like "Hollywood Freaks."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "HOLLYWOOD FREAKS," "MIDNIGHT VULTURES," BECK)

TUCKER: There are moments on "Midnight Vultures" that can make you laugh out loud. The juxtaposition of white and black rock and R&B are so startling, so instantly right, that you wonder why it's taken anyone this long to come up with a synthesis of styles such as "Peaches and Cream."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "PEACHES AND CREAM," "MIDNIGHT VULTURES," BECK)

TUCKER: You may have noticed by now that beyond the music, the words Beck is reciting don't make all that much literal sense. He was quoted a year ago, when he was in the thick of crafting this CD, as saying that what he wanted to do was make a, quote, "big dumb pop record with dumb lyrics." He stayed true to his own directive, with couplets like "I'm mixing business with leather, Christmas with heather," and this deathless quatrain, "I think we're going crazy / Her left eye is lazy / She looks so Israeli / Nicotine and gravy."

But the non sequiturs are a way for a young white man in love with black music to demonstrate his passion without making the cultural mistake of trying to pass. In the end, Beck's nonsense makes perfect sense.

GROSS: Ken Tucker is critic at large for "Entertainment Weekly." He reviewed Beck's new album, "Midnight Vultures."

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineer is Audrey Bentham (ph). Dorothy Farabee (ph) is our administrative assistant. Anne Marie Baldonado directed the show.

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Ken Tucker
High: Rock Critic Ken Tucker reviews "Midnight Vultures," the new CD from Beck.
Spec: Entertainment; Music Industry; Beck; "Midnight Vultures"

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: "Midnight Vultures": A Music Review
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.