Contributor
Related Topic
Other segments from the episode on December 20, 2018
Transcript
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to look back on the year in TV and film. Our film critic Justin Chang will have his top 10 list a little later in the show. First, our TV critic David Bianculli, who also sometimes guest hosts our show, is here with his top 10 list.
Welcome back to your show, David.
(LAUGHTER)
DAVID BIANCULLI, BYLINE: This is so much fun where I get to actually talk to you, even though every year, it gets harder to talk about TV.
GROSS: Why is that?
BIANCULLI: Because there's so much more of it, there really is. I can't do my job the way I used to do it. And it's just too big.
GROSS: Yeah. We'll get to that...
BIANCULLI: OK.
GROSS: ...In a couple of minutes. But first, let's do your top 10 list for the year. Why don't we start with number 10 and dramatically work our way up to number one?
BIANCULLI: OK. Number 10 is "Barry," an HBO comedy with Bill Hader in it and with a great supporting performance by Henry Winkler. It's one of two shows on my top 10 about a paid assassin, which is kind of weird. But the other one is more of a drama. Number nine is "Patrick Melrose" on Showtime. And it's a - was a limited series. And Benedict Cumberbatch - and the interesting thing about these, as I go through them, I don't expect anybody to have seen all 10 of these. It - television has just become too diverse. But if you listen to these and you want to watch them, that's the whole idea. You know, this is a second chance. You've already missed them once this year, most likely. But there's a chance to go back.
Number eight - another HBO series, "Sharp Objects." That was with Amy Adams. "Patrick Melrose" and "Sharp Objects" were both very dark, psychological studies. But I really think they were very well done. Number seven - a returning show from Hulu, "The Handmaid's Tale." Again, dark, dark, dark, but what an amazing performance. Elisabeth Moss is just so good in that. Number six - another marvelous performance. This is from "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel." And it's one of the better comedies on all of television, one of the best. And it looks so good. It's like a world I want to go in. It's "Mad Men" all over again, except it's lighter.
Number five is the only broadcast network show on my list. And it's "The Good Place" on NBC, which fascinates me because it's a philosophical comedy about the afterlife and about the worth of life on Earth. And if you pay attention to it, not only is it much more serious than most television shows, but it's also got some really big surprises in it, which I will not spoil if you haven't started watching it yet. You can start, but it will throw you for several loops. Number four is "Killing Eve" on BBC America, which is the other show about a paid assassin - in this case, a woman being hunted by a government person who is also a woman. "The Americans" is number three. That was on FX. That ended this year with a very strong finale and a very strong final season. And that was about Soviet sleeper agents in the U.S. And these days, when we're so...
GROSS: Science fiction, right? Yeah.
BIANCULLI: Yeah, exactly. We're so hyper aware about Russia again that it's sort of like - you root for the family not for the politics. But it's very interesting in the way that it landed all of its stories. It stuck its landing. Number two is "Legion" on FX, which is one of the most difficult TV shows to watch visually and the way it edits and the way it does shifting perspectives and unreliable narrators. But it's a really good show.
And then number one, my favorite - it used to be when we would do these end of year shows, my favorite show was "Breaking Bad." Now it's - it continues to be the spinoff which, is "Better Call Saul," which takes the character - Bob Odenkirk's character of Jimmy McGill who turns into Saul Goodman and shows us in a prequel how he turns into Saul. And it is my very favorite show on television right now.
GROSS: And Saul, of course, becomes a kind of drug lawyer, like, representing people in dealing large amounts of drugs or manufacturing them.
BIANCULLI: Yeah. It's "Breaking Bad" all over again, where you see a character that could be a nice guy and then just gets worse and worse and worse. And that happens with "Better Call Saul."
GROSS: Since it's your No. 1 show, do you want to play a scene from it?
BIANCULLI: Oh, sure. And without ruining anything, I can do it from the ending episode where it's been building up, where Jimmy McGill gets to go into a hearing to try and get reinstated as a lawyer. And he is - he has a letter that he wants to read from his brother, who was a lawyer who was very disapproving of him but much more successful and then decides to go another way. And it sounds like he's being very sincere, and it's a really good acting job.
GROSS: Well, here it is.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "BETTER CALL SAUL")
BOB ODENKIRK: (As Jimmy McGill) Chuck was the one who was always right - always - and usually, he was. You know, so for a guy like me, I did lousy in school. I lacked ambition. I always cut corners. I mean, for me, to live up to the standards of Charles McGill (laughter) - I mean, look at me. I'll never be as moral as him. I'll never be as smart. I'll never be as respected. I'll never be as good as Chuck, but I can try. I can try. If you decide that I get to be a lawyer, I'll do everything in my power to be worthy of the name McGill. And if you decide I'm not a lawyer, it doesn't matter. I'll still try to be the best man that I can be.
BIANCULLI: Why I love this is that he's lying. And as soon as it's over, when he fools even his partner and everybody else - he was just doing it. Not only is he not going to try and live up to the name, as soon as he gets reinstated, the very first thing he does is change the name. And so starting...
GROSS: (Laughter) So he doesn't have to live up to it anymore.
BIANCULLI: Right, he doesn't have to live up to it at all.
GROSS: (Laughter) That is great. OK. So you've been complaining about how difficult it is as a TV critic to even try to keep up with all the stuff coming out.
BIANCULLI: Yeah.
GROSS: You brought a clip with you of Homer Simpson.
BIANCULLI: This is from "The Simpsons."
GROSS: And - yeah.
BIANCULLI: So it's from a broadcast show.
GROSS: Yeah.
BIANCULLI: But it's when Homer Simpson became a TV critic. And then...
GROSS: I missed that. When did he become a TV critic?
BIANCULLI: Just a couple of weeks - oh, it's only for one episode.
GROSS: Yes.
BIANCULLI: It was like a few weeks ago. And he becomes a TV critic. Technically, he's a recapper, where he's just recounting what went on. And when you think of Homer Simpson - sadly, the way it reflects on me - Good idea, make him a TV critic. He's on the couch most of the time anyway.
GROSS: (Laughter).
BIANCULLI: But they call him in in this conglomerate - Google-Disney is this a made-up conglomerate - because he stopped recapping. And they can't have it because the status quo is being threatened by Homer not writing about television. So here's the clip.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE SIMPSONS")
PETER SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) Homer, I'm the CEO of a major media conglomerate. We can't have you quit. You're one of America's top recappers.
DAN CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) I had to quit. Recapping was ruining my marriage. There were so many shows. I couldn't keep up.
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) It's true. Currently, there are over 500 scripted shows on network cable and streaming.
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) Why are you making so many shows? No one could watch more than 300 of them.
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) Oh, we don't care if people watch. We just care if they subscribe for $13 a month.
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer, gasping).
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) You see, if people subscribe and don't watch, then we don't actually have to make the shows. We just need viewers to believe they can watch them.
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) Fake shows - but what if people try to see them?
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) They won't because recappers like you will give those shows a B-.
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) No one ever watches a B-. But that's crazy. It could never work.
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) It already has. Are you familiar with the USA Network?
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) Sure. "Royal Pains," "Suits," "White Collar."
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) Have you ever seen any of those shows?
CASTELLANETA: (As Homer) No, but somebody must have - surely, somebody.
SERAFINOWICZ: (As CEO) There is no USA Network. There hasn't been for 20 years. It's just bus ads.
BIANCULLI: That's how I feel.
GROSS: That's hilarious (laughter).
BIANCULLI: I know. I know.
GROSS: That's an excellent piece of TV criticism...
BIANCULLI: Yes.
GROSS: ...In terms of TV criticism of the system.
BIANCULLI: And it's on "The Simpsons," which started in 1989, and so it's weathered all this and survived longer than just about any broadcast TV show.
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is our TV critic David Bianculli. We're talking about the year in television. And we'll talk about it more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE COUNT BASIE ORCHESTRA'S "WINTER WONDERLAND")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is our TV critic David Bianculli. We're looking back at the year in television.
So let's move on from the dilemmas of criticism and viewing in the age of streaming television to late night political comedy this year. What were you paying the most attention to?
BIANCULLI: I try to pay attention to it all, the ones that made me laugh the most and that I was most excited by - two Daily Show alumni, Stephen Colbert on "The Late Show," John Oliver on "Last Week Tonight" - and then Seth Meyers from "Late Night With Seth Meyers." They're always worth checking in on. And John Oliver in particular just because of where he's placed in the news week - I feel better after I've watched him. It sort of makes everything that's happened over the week a little bit more sane. Plus he's very instructive.
GROSS: Oh, absolutely.
BIANCULLI: Yeah.
GROSS: I always learn so much when I listen to him. And it's so interesting to compare how Stephen Colbert has changed from the time he was on "The Colbert Report" 'cause on "The Colbert Report," everything had to be cast in the terms of his persona. And on "The Late Show," you can tell how passionate he's become about politics in America now and how angry. And what he says is hilarious. But his genuine anger at watching the Trump administration just kind of comes right through.
BIANCULLI: And increasingly it's become the signature part of the show. And it's an amazing piece of work that he's doing. And you're right. Now he's showing other muscles.
GROSS: And while we're on the subject of late night political comedy, "Saturday Night Live" has had some very funny opening sketches - political sketches about President Trump and his administration.
BIANCULLI: Right, and one of the best ones of the whole year just ran in the Christmas show of 2018. And it had Alec Baldwin, who frequently comes on to play President Trump. And it had - playing Brett Kavanaugh, it had Matt Damon returning for the second time to play that character. And they're all in this "It's A Wonderful Life" spoof where, what would happen if Trump had not been elected president? And so can I play a little piece from that?
GROSS: Sure, sure.
BIANCULLI: OK.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
ALEC BALDWIN: (As Donald Trump) Brett Kavanaugh, how's the Supreme Court?
MATT DAMON: (As Brett Kavanaugh) Me on the Supreme Court with my temperament - are you insane?
(LAUGHTER)
DAMON: (As Brett Kavanaugh) No, no, they went with that nerd Merrick Garland. But on the plus side, when I tell people I like beer, they find it charming and not like I'm threatening violence.
(LAUGHTER)
DAMON: Plus I have so much more time now to hang out with PJ and Squee and Needle-Dick Nick and No-Means-Yes Nate. Hey, I brought a little present for you. It's a calendar, and every day is a different beer.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: So that's Matt Damon as Brett Kavanaugh on "Saturday Night Live." And of course after that sketch, as you may know, President Trump tweeted his harsh criticism of that sketch and of "Saturday Night Live" and of NBC. David, do you want to read the tweet?
BIANCULLI: Yeah, I mean, President Trump the morning after - he tweets about NBC and other shows and then hones in on "Saturday Night Live" and says it's a Democratic spin machine and said should be tested in courts, can't be legal - only defame and belittle.
GROSS: You wrote a book about the Smothers Brothers, and they were censored actually.
BIANCULLI: Yeah.
GROSS: So that kind of applies to what we're hearing now from President Trump. Like, what's the connection?
BIANCULLI: Yeah, well, they - nobody did it then. You know, before John Oliver, before Jon Stewart, before "Saturday Night Live," the Smothers Brothers in primetime were attacking Presidents Johnson and Nixon. But it was a different time not only for the reaction to their comedy but from the presidents.
Nixon, you know, sort of put Tommy Smothers on what was an early version of what became the enemies list whereas LBJ, you know, President Johnson - he wrote a letter to Tom Smothers the year before the Smothers Brothers were fired. And I brought this here 'cause I thought of it after the tweets. It said, it is part of the price of leadership of this great and free nation to be the target of clever satirists. These are LBJ's words. You have given the gift of laughter to our people; may we never grow so somber or self-important that we fail to appreciate the humor in our lives. So that's different than can't be legal.
GROSS: Speaking of President Trump, you and I recently did an event together.
BIANCULLI: (Laughter).
GROSS: You know what I'm going to say.
BIANCULLI: Well, I don't know, but I...
GROSS: You know where I'm going. And at that event, I learned something I never knew about you. And we've been working together a very long time.
BIANCULLI: Yeah.
GROSS: You used to be a TV critic in New York. You wrote for the New York Post and the New York Daily News. During that period, President Trump before he was president had his reality shows, and you would of course write about them as a TV critic. And you spoke to him, like, several times.
BIANCULLI: Yeah, he would call up his secretary. I think her name was Robin - would call up and say, Mr. Trump is on the line. And so I would talk to him when he called.
GROSS: What did he call about?
BIANCULLI: It was invariably what I had written about that day. I mean, he does read New York tabloids. And so it was either - if I said something good about "The Apprentice," he would say that I was giving much better advice or analysis than the people that he was paying a lot of money to. And I said that he should - you know, he should find better people because the paper didn't cost that much. And if I said something detrimental about it, then he would complain.
GROSS: Had you given "The Apprentice" good reviews or bad reviews or mixed reviews?
BIANCULLI: When - I didn't like its structure originally, but I liked some of the things. And then I didn't like stuff, so I would say I was mixed on it. It was not, by any means, the worst of the reality shows, but I couldn't make sense of a lot of his capricious decisions. So there you go.
GROSS: So there's another encounter you had with Trump. And this was at, like, a - one of the TV conferences where all the critics show up, I think.
BIANCULLI: Yes.
GROSS: And then some of the people behind the shows that are being written about are there, too. Tell us about that story.
BIANCULLI: Well, that's the TV critics press tour, where, you know, people come on stage - producers, stars - and there's like a hundred, 200 TV critics. And we ask questions. And at one of them, Donald Trump started off by saying that "The Apprentice" was the No. 1 show on television. And I raised my hand and asked how that was possible since it didn't even win its timeslot. And without missing a beat, he said, well, that's what I was told.
GROSS: One of the big dramas this year happened off screen. And that was, you know, a lot of men having to leave their positions, being forced out of their positions because of charges of sexual harassment or sexual assault, including Kevin Spacey...
BIANCULLI: Yes.
GROSS: ...The star of "House Of Cards," so the final episodes of the series that landed this year were, like, without the president - without that president.
BIANCULLI: Yeah, which wasn't the way they would have planned it.
GROSS: Yeah. And then I - we have Les Moonves, the head of CBS, forced out. And, you know, a lot of other people who - you know, people will remember having been forced out in the recent past. How do you think that's affecting, like, the world of television, not just from a viewing point of view but in terms of what's happening in the world of television production and television executives, television power?
BIANCULLI: Well, Les Moonves - they've just ruled that he's probably not going to get his 100 million plus parachute, and that's the way you teach lessons in Hollywood. But creatively, in terms of what's being made, you are getting more women both behind the camera scripting things and starring. "Killing Eve" came - is a perfect example where the - there are so many strong women in "Killing Eve" that that would've populated entire seasons' worth of television, this one show, just 10 years ago.
GROSS: Did you have a favorite TV moment of the year?
BIANCULLI: I did. I did. And if there are any people left who have not seen it, I cannot stress enough how you really have to because I've seen it so many times by now. But it makes me happy. It makes me weepy. It just hits all the emotions beautifully. It was when James Corden on "The Late Late Show" did a carpool karaoke with Paul McCartney, but it was extended. It started off with him driving Paul McCartney in Liverpool through and on Penny Lane while they sang along, but it ended up with so much more. So I'll play a little bit of the start of that. But for the rest of it, please seek it out for yourself.
GROSS: And David, I want to wish you happy holidays and a great 2019.
BIANCULLI: Oh, thank you very much. It's so much fun to do this.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LATE LATE SHOW WITH JAMES CORDEN")
JAMES CORDEN: I mean, I feel it's only right that we would listen to this while we're here.
PAUL MCCARTNEY: Yeah.
CORDEN: Don't you think?
MCCARTNEY: Yeah, I would...
JAMES CORDEN AND PAUL MCCARTNEY: (Singing) There is a barber showing photographs of every head he's had the pleasure to know. And all the people that come and go stop and say, hello.
CORDEN: Hello.
MCCARTNEY: Hello.
CORDEN AND MCCARTNEY: (Singing) Penny Lane...
GROSS: David Bianculli is FRESH AIR's TV critic. He's also a professor of TV and film history at Rowan University and the author of "The Platinum Age Of Television." You can see his 10 best list along with our other critics' top 10 lists at npr.org/freshaircritics. That's npr.org/freshaircritics. After we take a short break, our film critic Justin Chang will tell us what's on his top 10 list. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE LATE LATE SHOW WITH JAMES CORDEN")
MCCARTNEY: I used to be in the choir at that church.
CORDEN: That church there?
MCCARTNEY: Saint Barnabas, yeah.
CORDEN: You were in the choir.
MCCARTNEY: I was a choir boy.
CORDEN: Thank God for that choir...
MCCARTNEY: Yes.
CORDEN: ...And the voice it's given us.
MCCARTNEY: Yes, indeed. And my brother got married in that church.
CORDEN: No way.
MCCARTNEY: Legendary, yes, he is. He says hi, by the way.
CORDEN AND MCCARTNEY: (Singing) Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes.
MCCARTNEY: That's where the nurse was.
CORDEN: Oh.
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. For filmmakers, this is award season. But for film critics, it's 10 best season. And our film critic Justin Chang has his best of the year list and is going to talk with us about his picks. Justin is also a film critic for the LA Times. I've never interviewed him. So a little later, I'm going to talk with him about his career as a film critic and the movies that he first fell in love with.
Justin Chang, welcome to FRESH AIR. So...
JUSTIN CHANG, BYLINE: Thank you, Terry.
GROSS: Why don't we start with your top 10 list, which is more of, like, a top 12 list because you've paired things together. And so you're taking liberties. That's OK.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: So why don't you run through your list for us?
CHANG: OK. And the way I've done this is I've grouped titles together because a lot of these movies this year seem to be in conversation with one another. And it felt weird to split them up. It doesn't always happen that way, but it did. So number 12 for me is "Madeline's Madeline," Josephine Decker's restlessly creative portrait of a teenage actress in New York. The movie is an emotional and psychological triangle about three women and just like my No. 11 film, "The Favorite," which is Yorgos Lanthimos' viciously entertaining costume drama starring Rachel Weisz, Emma Stone and the magnificent Olivia Colman.
Next, I have two wonderfully layered and mysterious dramas about makeshift families living in poverty. Number 10 is "Happy As Lazzaro" from the Italian director Alice Rohrwacher. And number nine is "Shoplifters" from the Japanese director Hirokazu Kore-eda, which won the Palme d'Or at this year's Cannes Film Festival.
My next two movies are both contemporary riffs on the classic Western, both made with non-professional actors. Number eight is actually called "Western." It's a German drama set in Bulgaria by the director of the Valeska Grisebach. And number seven is "The Rider," Chloe Zhao's achingly sad movie about a Lakota cowboy who may never ride a horse again. Number six is "If Beale Street Could Talk," Barry Jenkins' staggeringly beautiful adaptation of James Baldwin's novel. I'm pairing it with number five, the pitch-perfect marital dramedy "Private Life" directed by Tamara Jenkins. Both these movies are about families coming together to support a couple through a long-term ordeal.
Number four is Ryan Coogler's visionary comic book epic "Black Panther." It's nice when the top-grossing movie of the year is also one of the best. I'm pairing it with a movie whose gross would probably not cover the "Black Panther" craft services budget, and that is "Zama," Lucrecia Martel's brilliant movie about a Spanish magistrate in 18th-century Paraguay. Both movies have a lot to say about colonialism and slavery, though they say it in very, very different ways.
Coming in at number two is "First Reformed," Paul Schrader's stunning drama about a Protestant minister played by Ethan Hawke. It's a story about a man's growing alienation and despair, which makes it a good pairing with my No. 1 movie of the year, "Burning," which is a masterpiece from the great South Korean director Lee Chang-dong.
GROSS: It's a very diverse list you've put together. Can you talk about the diversity represented in that list?
CHANG: It's been a really diverse year I think. And in my criticism, I always try to cast as wide an eye as possible. It's not always the case that I have - I think I have a lot more foreign-language films or films from overseas on my list this year. It's been an exceptional year for world cinema. And yet at the same time, it was a really good year, I think, for the American studios - Black Panther of course. You know, I like a lot of movies, by the way, that are - just did not make my list. There were so many that I liked this year. Like, I really like "A Star Is Born," (laughter) you know, for example. I just - it didn't quite crack my top 20, I guess. But I was a fan.
And I want to mention the film "Leave No Trace," which, again, just fell just outside my list. It's directed by Debra Granik, who did "Winter's Bone." And she actually won the best director prize from the Los Angeles Film Critics Association, of which I'm a member. And she and Tamara Jenkins both made these wonderful movies after long absences for various reasons. I think industry sexism maybe being one of them but other reasons as well - just finding the right material. So it was very heartening to see a lot of female directorial voices that we hadn't heard from in a while that reemerged this year.
GROSS: With Christmas coming up, I think a lot of people will be going to the movies. Are there films opening for the holidays or still around during the holidays that you'd recommend?
CHANG: I'm going to surprise myself by recommending two movies that fall under categories that I as a critic am not supposed to really like or endorse in any way. One of those is a superhero, comic book-based film. And the other one is a "Transformers" movie of all things. I can't believe I just said that.
The superhero one is "Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse," which is an animated film. It's terrifically inventive and funny and visually stunning. It's a reinvention of the Spider-Man myth. It completely disarmed me and a lot of my colleagues as well who've seen it. And the other one that I would recommend is "Bumblebee," which is a prequel to the "Transformers" movies. And because it's directed by Travis Knight rather than that auteur of incoherence Michael Bay, it actually tells a surprisingly sweet and amusing and blissfully coherent story of intergalactic friendship. And it also stars Hailee Steinfeld as the human lead - so a Transformers movie led by a woman for a change. And that will probably do well at the box office.
So I do want to mention, if I may, two movies that I didn't particularly care for but I'm not saying don't go necessarily. And I don't want to be too Grinchy, but these are kind of two of the big sort of - two of definitely the big studio movies that are opening around the holidays. One of them is "Vice," which is Adam McKay's biopic of former Vice President Dick Cheney, who's played by Christian Bale. Amy Adams plays his wife, Lynne Cheney. Sam Rockwell plays former President George W. Bush, and Steve Carell is former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. I'm giving it perhaps maybe a mild recommendation. McKay's guerrilla-style agitprop comedy doesn't really do that much for me, but I find it a little grating and self-congratulatory. But there is a lot to chew on here. Bale's performance is pretty astounding and should be seen.
And the other one, which is going to make me a lot of enemies perhaps (laughter), is "Mary Poppins Returns." It's turning out to be one of the more unexpectedly polarizing movies of the season. I adore the 1964 movie with Julie Andrews, and I thought this one, which stars Emily Blunt - and I am a fan of Emily Blunt, but I just found this to be a very busy and overstuffed and strenuously upbeat movie that did not charm me for a second. But I also have friends and colleagues who were reduced to tears by it, so your mileage may vary. You should go and check it out for yourself.
GROSS: Yeah, I just saw it. I really liked it.
CHANG: (Laughter) There you go.
GROSS: But, you know, I'm too old to have seen the original "Mary Poppins" as a child, so it's not a movie, you know, that I had such attachment to that I'm measuring this against it. But I like the sadness of this Mary Poppins. It's set, like, in the Depression. And, you know, the wife, mother of the family, has died, so there's sadness overhanging the whole movie. And I think the songs are good, and the orchestration is terrific. The performers are great. Lin-Manuel Miranda is so much fun to watch in a kind of vaudevillian type of role.
CHANG: (Laughter).
GROSS: Yeah, so it's interesting. I didn't realize it was such a polarizing movie.
CHANG: It's early days yet. It hasn't opened. I mean, when I talk - sometimes I'm looking, you know, it's - the reviews have broken for this movie, you know, a couple weeks before the movie's actually released. So we'll wait and see. I shouldn't necessarily say it's polarizing until - I think the movie's going to do very, very well, and people are largely going to love it. I know what you mean, Terry.
And it's funny for me because I did grow up with the original. And I tried not to do too much of a - when I'm - Disney's doing this a lot, lately. They are revisiting their old material, like, with live-action versions of "Cinderella" and "Beauty And The Beast" and the forthcoming "Lion King." So they're kind of raiding their back catalogue a lot.
And I try not to be overly comparative. But with this one, it was just hard for me because I felt that it was so kind of engineered as a series of callbacks to the original. And I find - this is not just Disney, too. They're trying to give you something old with just a little bit of something new.
GROSS: My guest is our film critic, Justin Chang. We'll talk more about movies after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF DAVE BRUBECK'S "HOMECOMING JINGLE BELLS")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. My guest is our film critic, Justin Chang. He's been telling us what's on his best of the year list. So number two on your list is "First Reformed," Paul Schrader's terrific film starring Ethan Hawke as a minister who's losing his faith and dealing with guilt over his son's death. And you describe it in the LA Times as the rare religious movie to understand the deepest convictions often arise from a posture of doubt.
And in March of this year, you wrote a piece about Christian films - about, you know, faith-based Christian films, which Paul Schrader's film is not one of. But the headline for that piece was, "A Christian Critic Wrestles With New Biblical Films And The Hope For A Better Faith-Based Cinema." And the Christian critic was you. And these are films I don't know even get reviewed in most newspapers. I think they might be...
CHANG: They - they...
GROSS: Yeah, go ahead.
CHANG: They do sometimes. I think we try - you know, I - you know, and a lot of publications do try. But I find them fascinating. I think the great majority of them, as I wrote in that piece, are not very good. And they are very doctrinaire. They're very heavy-handed. They take very sort of facile, dramatic approaches to serious themes and wind up sort of hitting you over the head or they end with an altar call. And I - so even though I'm a Christian, I don't feel so different about them as maybe an atheist critic would (laughter) or so.
You know, and I just sort of cringe at, you know, sometimes just - to bring it back to "First Reformed," I do love it when filmmakers who are established take on - you know, and of course, Paul Schrader is, you know, he's a Christian, you know, has - comes from a Calvinist background. And you see that through his career. So "First Reformed" is very much a career summation of him - for him. And he, you know, he comes from a very progressive, liberal political point of view. And he is clearly wrestling with - with this and kind of trying to tear down the sort of, you know - I guess, in some ways, the more conservative wing of Christianity.
I loved, just a few years ago, Martin Scorsese's film "Silence" was my favorite movie that year. And that was about a Jesuit priest in Japan and his crisis of faith and very much, you know - it was all about the silence of God and the apparent absence of God and what you do with that doubt. So I think that there's a great dramatic potency there. And as someone who - you know, I'm a - I'm a Christian. But I also think, like any thinking person, I experience doubt every day, every second. And so it's kind of what keeps us going. And I'm a big - I'm fascinated by movies that sort of explore that tension and wrestle with that tension.
GROSS: How did you first fall in love with movies?
CHANG: Oh, to bring it back to "Mary Poppins," I think that and "The Sound Of Music," the two Julie Andrews nanny governess movies were just constantly on replay throughout - in my house, and a lot of Disney movies and such. But I didn't actually grow up seeing a lot of movies beyond that. I didn't grow up with "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones," which maybe explains why I feel a little bit more removed from those franchises in their latter-day reincarnations, as it were.
But I really - for me, when I was a teenager or perhaps an early adolescent, you know, gosh, I remember one year. It was - the year 1997, I think it was. And the biggest movie that year and, of course, of all time was "Titanic." And I remember seeing that movie. And also, then, that movie was, you know, making - getting a lot of attention. And there was another film called "The Sweet Hereafter," Atom Egoyan's beautiful adaptation of the Russell Banks novel, I believe it was, starring Bruce Greenwood and Sarah Polley, which made a lot of top-ten lists.
And I remember reading, in the LA Times, Kenneth Turan's reviews of both those films. He hated "Titanic." And in fact, the director, James Cameron, came after him in the Times for that. But he also - and he lavished praise on "The Sweet Hereafter." And this is very moving and meaningful to me because Kenny is now a dear colleague of mine at the Times. But watching those two, it was interesting to me that here's this enormous blockbuster. And here is, you know, an art film, or an independent drama, a Canadian film. And I actually love both movies.
And it was an interesting kind of, OK, how are these - how are these good or not good? And what - it just got me thinking about, how do I make sense of my reactions? And now - at this time, these weren't - you know, I was watching a lot - starting to watch a lot of other movies. I was going to theaters. I started kind of going by myself to theaters as well.
I started doing a teen movie panel for my Orange County - I grew up in Orange County. And it was the Orange County Register, my hometown paper, that had this, where they would assign teenagers to go review the movies. And you'd write, like, a little paragraph. And that was my first kind of foray into the world of entertainment journalism.
GROSS: So you said that you didn't grow up with "Star Wars" and other films like that. Is that a function of age, taste or your parents?
CHANG: You know, it's weird. I don't know. I mean, my parents didn't always go out of their way to show me movies. I watched a lot - yeah, I watched a fair amount of television. It was also sort of a taste thing. I just wasn't that into it, I guess. Maybe - but maybe if I'd been exposed to it at the right time, I would have been, you know? And I - now I - even though it's not maybe my first love, I like a lot of Spielberg movies. I, of course, have gone back and watched them. I like a lot of the "Star Wars" movies. Maybe I might - you know, my attachment to them is not as deep because it didn't - it wasn't a formative kind of thing.
But at the same time, my dad was really into old Hollywood. He loved - and we did watch a lot together. Like, we watched a lot of Hitchcock movies together. We watched "North By Northwest." We watched "Psycho." We watched "Vertigo." We watched all the - you know, my - I can't remember if it was my dad or my mom, but talking about seeing "The Bicycle Thief" in China. And so it's like - and this movie that kind of reduced people to tears over there.
So my dad really did do his part to sort of nurture a love of old movies, in particular. So - for which I'm very much grateful to him in retrospect, although I don't think he had thought at the time that it would produce anything in terms of shape - shape me in terms of my career or what I would do.
GROSS: Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more.
CHANG: Sure (laughter).
GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is FRESH AIR film critic, Justin Chang. He's of course also film critic for the LA Times. And we've been talking about the year end in movies. But we're also talking about Justin's life as a film critic. We're going to do more of that after we come back from this break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE COUNT BASIE ORCHESTRA'S "GOOD SWING WENCESLAS")
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is FRESH AIR's film critic, Justin Chang, who is also a film critic for the LA Times. And he's here to talk about the year in movies, but we're also talking about his life as a film critic.
So "Crazy Rich Asians," a film that you liked this year, was, like, the first really, like, big-budget American movie with an all-Asian cast. And I'm wondering when you were growing up and there weren't movies like that, did it matter to you? Did you feel like you were not included onscreen?
CHANG: Yes and no, I guess. It was 1993 when "The Joy Luck Club" came out. And I believe that people have been saying it's been 25 years now, and "Crazy Rich Asians" is the first Hollywood studio movie to feature an Asian-American or to - I would say, actually, to tell a story that's specifically about Asian-American identity - because, of course, "Crazy Rich Asians" also features - it's a very Pan Asian cast from - of Americans and also actors from Asia, like Michelle Yeoh, for example. So that's quite a large gap.
So I think that it was - when I went to go see "Crazy Rich Asians," which I liked a lot and - but I also was maybe approaching it a little bit warily, not wanting to give it, you know, points for - just for checking off a box, I guess. But I was really surprised at how moving it was. And Michelle Yeoh in the movie gives one of my favorite performances this year. She's this, you know, matriarch of this obscenely wealthy Chinese Singaporean family - which is, again, not that relatable to me (laughter).
But I think what is relatable about it is that she - there's a scene in the movie where, you know, they're making dumplings. And then there's a later scene where she and the lead character, played by Constance Wu, are playing Mahjong. And they are talking about family and the obligations of family and how, in Asian families, there is this expectation of, you know, of devotion to your parents and devotion to your children.
It's a very, you know - parents and children are so closely bound in this culture. And I think this is true of a lot of immigrant cultures as well. And Michelle Yeoh just delivers these speeches so beautifully. It's very, very subtle acting. But I almost broke down crying just hearing this and realizing that I had never heard these sentiments expressed or explored before in a mainstream American, Hollywood-made film. And there was something really powerful about that. And it made me question - and I kind of said this in my review - it's a - you know, why haven't we heard this before? It's kind of remarkable.
And that - and something like that - you know, and if you haven't had that experience, if the movie doesn't resonate with you, that's totally fine. But for me, it did. And I think we lose something when we don't hear from other cultures. And so - but to your question, do I feel that kind of sense of exclusion? Not really - I don't think it's until you see a movie like that that you're even reminded of it because - and I - it's weird because even though I just have used the word relatable many times, I am generally not a big believer that you need to relate to a movie to like it or appreciate it or even to love it.
I think sometimes a lot of critics - or even just a lot of moviegoers - make this weird fetish out of relatability as if, you know, something that has to speak to me personally. And I think that's a very sort of solipsistic way of looking at cinema. I'm very torn sometimes about this subject. I do think there is a deep human need to see oneself reflected on the screen.
And at the same time, I think the glory of cinema is sometimes getting you out of that completely and getting you to see a perspective that you wouldn't have thought to engage with. And of course, those things do go hand in hand. They're not - you know, you need both of those perspectives I think - so yeah.
GROSS: Before you wrote for the LA Times, you wrote for Variety.
CHANG: Yeah.
GROSS: Did you have to learn any of the kind of Variety lingo, like, the inside - inside-the-biz lingo that Variety at least used to be famous for?
CHANG: Used to be - yeah, I know. It's very funny. And I - sure, I did use, you know, words like pic for picture or movie, or prexy for president or, you know, sprocket opera for film festival (laughter).
GROSS: (Laughter).
CHANG: I didn't use them extensively, but those were fun to use, you know? And it's a little bit of a shame although completely understandable that Variety has largely phased out what they used to call slanguage (ph) because it is not very Internet-friendly. It is not search-engine-friendly. So I do understand that, you know, everything is very much about getting traffic now. And so...
GROSS: I didn't realize that that's why it was phased out. That's a really, like, interesting reason to - (laughter) that it was phased out.
CHANG: I would love to - and, you know, it's been a while since I was at Variety, although I still have many friends and colleagues there who - you know, and we used to have, yes, language dictionaries in the office that had - (laughter) you know, it was, like, a glossary of terms. And - but even then there was always this sense of, like, don't overdo it. You know, write naturally. Don't try to force yourself to use it. And a lot of times, the - there's this kind of brusqueness to trade language. And it's usually just, you know, you just - you take out all the - the thes and the definite articles and whatnot to make it seem a little bit more abbreviated.
But yeah, Variety, though, was a wonderful apprenticeship, and I spent 12 years there. And I'm very fond of the place still. And even though it was very scary because Variety is the bible of showbiz - and when I first started there, I was an intern fresh out of college. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And I was the very opposite of an insider. And they were really - the great thing about it is they were willing to give an intern a shot. And I started reviewing movies as an intern, and then I got hired there. And so I will always be grateful to them for that opportunity.
GROSS: So I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you have, like, a top three movies of all time list.
CHANG: Yes. I have a bunch. But my favorite movie of all time is "Chungking Express" from the Hong Kong director Wong Kar-wai. It was made in the '90s. It's just a joy bomb of a movie. It just makes me happy every time I see it. It's a wonderful romantic comedy by way of a police thriller - kind of uncategorizable, wonderful movie. And gosh, it's hard to settle on a top two.
But I also love "The Godfather Part II." I love the first one, too. But the second one is just to the next level for me. And, God, what's a third one? Oh, I'll say "Rio Bravo," Howard Hawks' great western with John Wayne. Yeah, it's one of my favorites.
GROSS: Well, Justin, it's been great to talk with you.
CHANG: Thank you.
GROSS: I wish you a Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy and fulfilling 2019. And I look forward...
CHANG: Thank you, Terry.
GROSS: ...To hearing and reading more of your reviews.
CHANG: Happy holidays and happy new year to you, Terry. And thank you so much for letting me contribute.
GROSS: Justin Chang is FRESH AIR's film critic and a film critic for the LA Times. His 10 best list, along with our other critics' lists of the best of the year in TV, books and pop music, are all collected on one page at npr.org/freshaircritics. If you're still searching for holiday gifts or if you're looking for suggestions of what to read or view over the holidays, check out these lists at npr.org/freshaircritics.
(SOUNDBITE OF SUSIE ARIOLI'S "CHRISTMAS DREAMING")
GROSS: And if you're looking for interviews to listen to over the holidays, like our interview with Emily Blunt, who stars in "Mary Poppins Returns," check out our podcast.
FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.
We'll close with a song from a new album of holiday songs titled "Christmas Dreaming" by Canadian singer Susie Arioli. This is the title track, a song originally recorded by Frank Sinatra in 1947.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CHRISTMAS DREAMING")
SUSIE ARIOLI: (Singing) I'm doing my Christmas dreaming a little early this year. No sign of snow around and yet I go around, hearing jingle bells ringing in my ear. Your promise must be the reason the happy season is here. So I'm doing my Christmas dreaming a little early this year.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.