Singer Brenda Lee

DATE February 19, 2002 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Brenda Lee discusses her life as a singer
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is Brenda Lee. Next month she'll be inducted into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. I liked her records when I was a kid, but it wasn't until I was
an adult that I realized what a good singer she is.

(Soundbite of "All Alone Am I")

Ms. BRENDA LEE (Singer): (Singing) All alone am I ever since your good-bye.
All alone with just the beat of my heart. People all around, but I don't hear
a sound. Just the lonely beating of my heart. No use in holding other
hands...

GROSS: That's Brenda Lee's 1962 recording "All Alone Am I," one of five Lee
recordings that made it to the top 40 that year. She was 15 in 1960, when she
had her first number-one hit, "I'm Sorry." That's also the year that "Rockin'
Around the Christmas Tree" made the charts. You still hear it every year
around the holidays.

Brenda Lee has a new memoir called "Little Miss Dynamite" that describes what
it was like to be a teen star in the early days of rock 'n' roll. Brenda Lee
was raised in a poor family in rural Georgia. She was performing on TV by the
time she was six. At the age of 11 she signed with Decca Records and made her
first recording, the Hank Williams song "Jambalaya." Brenda Lee learned the
song from her mother and had been singing it since she was a little girl.

(Soundbite of "Jambalaya")

Ms. LEE: (Singing) Good-bye, Joe. You've got to go. Me, oh my, oh. We've
got to go for the pier, oh, down the bayou. My barge, sweetest one. Me, oh
my, oh. Son of a gun, we'll have big of fun on the bayou. Jambalaya
(unintelligible) gumbo. 'Cause tonight I'm gonna see my cherimio(ph).
Guitar, pickle jar and biguero(ph). Son of a gun, we'll have big of fun on
the bayou. De-de-doh...

GROSS: Brenda Lee, you have that kind of like rockabilly hiccup in your voice
on that recording.

Ms. LEE: Uh-huh.

GROSS: Is that something you were already doing? Is that something you were
coached to do?

Ms. LEE: No. That's something that I was already doing. I was never coached
in singing. I never took singing lessons until I was in my early teens, and I
really didn't take singing lessons then. I went to New York and worked with a
vocal coach on correct breathing and stuff like that, but I was never coached
vocally.

GROSS: So how did you start doing that hiccup kind of thing?

Ms. LEE: I don't know. That just came natural. That's along with the growl
that I used to do, that I still do today. That just all was there.

GROSS: You're from a poor family. Was there pressure on you to bring in the
money and keep recording and, you know, make the money that your family didn't
have?

Ms. LEE: I don't think there was any pressure. I never felt any. Once
again, I was singing, which is what I love to do, and, you know, if I was
making any money doing that, that was just an added attraction to the whole
deal. And if it was helping my family, that was great. Later on I knew that
the money was helping and that we needed the money. But it was always a
pleasure for me. I was never pushed to--my dad died at an early age, when I
was about seven, and I was never pushed to sing or to do any of those things.
But I just always knew that that would help, and I wanted to help.

GROSS: Now you write that there were restrictions on your money because you
were a child. This was after you moved to Nashville. There were
restrictions...

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...in the state of Tennessee protecting child performers from having
their parents misuse the money. So what restrictions were put on the money
that you were bringing in?

Ms. LEE: My mom was given a weekly salary, which was very low. It wasn't
much at all. I think it was about $75 a week, if I'm not mistaken. And
everything else went into the court and was looked over by a judge. And
anything that I wanted to buy big, like I wanted to buy my mom a home, I had
to go to the judge with my legal guardian and ask him to let me do that. And
he had to rule if it was OK or not. So everything was watched over and nobody
was able to abscond with any of the money.

GROSS: So what kind of home did you buy her?

Ms. LEE: I bought her a nice home in a nice little suburb of Nashville. It
was kind of a split-level type, two-story type home. It was very nice and had
it all furnished, and she was very happy.

GROSS: And you were living there, too?

Ms. LEE: I was living there, too.

GROSS: Well, Brenda Lee, let's get to your first number-one hit, "I'm Sorry."
What's the story behind this song? How did you end up recording this song?

Ms. LEE: The writer of "I'm Sorry" had written a song for me called "Sweet
Nothings," which was my really first big rock hit. And he had given me "I'm
Sorry" before he had given me "Sweet Nothings." And we had taken it to the
record label, to the people there, and they really thought that the song was
just a little bit too mature for me because I was only 14 at the time, going
on 14 or somewhere thereabouts. But I loved the song and I really believed in
it, and every time we'd have a session I'd say, `Let's do "I'm Sorry." Let's
do "I'm Sorry."' And they'd say, `No, we're not going to do that.' So one
night were were doing a session and we had about 10 minutes, 15 minutes left,
and I said, `Come on. Let's do "I'm Sorry."' And Owen said, `Well, we don't
even have an arrangement on it.' And I said, `That's OK. Just get the demo
out. We'll play it for the guys here, the musicians, and we'll just all work
together and put our heads together and come up with what we think it ought to
be.' And that's what we did. And we did two takes. And it came out and went
to number one. And right now I understand worldwide it sold 15 million
records.

GROSS: Well, let's hear it. This is Brenda Lee's hit "I'm Sorry."

(Soundbite of "I'm Sorry")

Ms. LEE: (Singing) I'm sorry, so sorry that I was such a fool. I didn't know
love could be so cruel. Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh, yes. You tell me mistakes are
part of being young. But that don't right a wrong that's been done.

Chorus: (Singing) I'm sorry.

Ms. LEE: I'm sorry.

Chorus: (Singing) So sorry.

Ms. LEE: So sorry. Please accept my apology. But love is blind and I was
too blind to see. Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh, yes.

GROSS: Brenda Lee's first number-one hit, "I'm Sorry," recorded in 1960.

Brenda Lee, you know your `oh-oh-oh-oh, yeah' part?

Ms. LEE: Uh-huh.

GROSS: Excuse me for ruining it there. Was that your idea to put that in, or
was that written into the music or sung in the...

Ms. LEE: No, that was my idea.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Ms. LEE: And we had to make the song longer because it's only an eight-bar
song and we had to make a 16-bar song. So that was the reason for the
recitation. But the `oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh, yeah' that was my idea.

GROSS: Works very well. Very effective.

Ms. LEE: Thank you.

GROSS: I was going to ask you about the spoken bridge. So you put that in
just to make the song longer?

Ms. LEE: Yeah. We needed the song to be longer, so we kind of sat around a
minute, and Owen said, `Why don't we do a recitation?' And I was all for that
because I was a big Ink Spot fan, for those folks out there that remember The
Ink Spots. And Mr. Williams, the lead singer of The Ink Spots, always used to
do recitations, like on songs like "If I Didn't Care" and things like that.
So I thought that was a great idea.

GROSS: My guest is Brenda Lee. She has a new memoir called "Little Miss
Dynamite." We'll talk more after our break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Brenda Lee is my guest. She has a new memoir called "Little Miss
Dynamite: The Life and Times of Brenda Lee."

I want to play another big hit of yours. This was your second number-one hit,
"I Want to be Wanted." How was this song chosen?

Ms. LEE: That song was an Italian song that we had translated into English,
and we used to get a lot of foreign songs because I had courted the foreign
market by going over and working in Europe and all over, in Brazil and South
America, and all over South America, all over Europe. And I had courted those
markets in the early days because I wasn't having any success in America. So
I used to get an awful lot of foreign songs sent to me to be recorded, and "I
Want to be Wanted" was one of them.

GROSS: It's a great recording. Let's hear it. This is Brenda Lee, recorded
in 1960.

(Soundbite of "I Want to be Wanted")

Ms. LEE: (Singing) Alone. So alone that I could cry. I want to be wanted.

Chorus: (Singing) Wanted.

Ms. LEE: Alone. Watching lovers passing by. I want to be wanted. When I am
kissed I want his lips to kiss me. When we're apart I want his heart to
really miss me. I want to know he loves me so his eyes are misty. That's the
way I want to be loved. Alone...

GROSS: Brenda Lee recorded in 1960. Brenda Lee has a new autobiography
called "Little Miss Dynamite."

You were written up in a lot of the teen magazines when...

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...you were 15 and afterwards. You say in your book that all your
romances in your mid-teens were fake ones. They were just things that were
made up for publicity. Tell us about some of the fake romances with other
teen-age stars.

Ms. LEE: Well, let's see. There was Fabian. There was Bobby V. There was
Tony Dow. Those are the ones I remember.

GROSS: Tony Dow was the older brother on "Leave it to Beaver."

Ms. LEE: That's right. And we had a layout one day, and, you know, for a
teen magazine. And it made the kids think that we had a romance going on.
The same with Bobby V. and the same with Fabian. But they were actually just
my buddies. I wasn't even allowed to date at that time.

GROSS: Who was it that was preventing you from dating?

Ms. LEE: My mom didn't allow me to date until I was 16, and then I was only
allowed to double date. And I had my first single date with the guy that I
married.

GROSS: Wow.

Ms. LEE: Yeah.

GROSS: Now you also had a column called Brenda in Teensville.

Ms. LEE: Yeah.

GROSS: Where did the column run?

Ms. LEE: It ran in 16 magazines, and that was a lot of fun to write that. We
did little stories on beauty and tips for beauty for girls and dating and all
that kind of stuff. And that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that.

GROSS: Now how could you give tips on dating if you weren't even allowed to
date?

Ms. LEE: Well, I just gave what I thought, you know, that I would--I just
said, you know, `I'm not allowed to date, but if I were allowed to date, this
is what I would do.'

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Ms. LEE: And all the kids knew that I wasn't allowed to date. I never hid
that from them.

GROSS: Now my memories of you are with one of those big bouffant hairdos of
the '60s.

Ms. LEE: Oh, yes. Yes. The big hair. I still have big hair. It's not as
big, but it's big.

GROSS: Why do you still have big hair?

Ms. LEE: I'm so short I think it makes me look taller, so I just continue to
keep it.

GROSS: Brenda Lee is my guest. She has a new autobiography called "Little
Miss Dynamite."

I want to play a recording that I think every American has to know. It would
be impossible to have not heard this recording if you've lived through
Christmas in America. And I'm thinking of "Rockin' Around the Christmas
Tree." How did you end up recording this?

Ms. LEE: That song was written by a gentleman who was a dear friend of mine.
He's passed away. His name was Johnny Marx(ph), and he was out of New York.
And he also wrote "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Holly Jolly Christmas"
and several other Christmas standards. And he sent about 20 songs to me one
time, and that was the only Christmas one in the whole group, and that was the
one that I loved. And so we went into the studio, I believe it was in 1958,
and recorded that and released it. And it just didn't do anything. And then,
after I had "Sweet Nothings," the label released it again at Christmas and it
did, you know, fairly well. But then, after "I'm Sorry," it started doing
really, really great. And it's one of the top 10 Christmas songs of all time.

GROSS: Why don't we hear it. This is Brenda Lee.

(Soundbite of "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree")

Ms. LEE: (Singing) Rockin' around the Christmas tree at the Christmas party
hop. Mistletoe hung where you can see. Every couple tries to stop. Rockin'
around the Christmas tree. Let the Christmas spirit reign. Later we'll have
some pumpkin pie and we'll do some caroling. You will get a sentimental
feeling when you hear voices singing `Let's be jolly; deck the halls with
boughs of holly.' Rockin' around the Christmas tree. Have a happy holiday.
Everyone dancing merrily in the new old-fashioned way.

GROSS: Brenda Lee, I'm sure, like every other American, you hear this many,
many times every single Christmas. What goes through your mind when you hear
it on the radio around Christmas?

Ms. LEE: I'm just overwhelmed that it's had the success that it has. I mean,
I have people tell me it wouldn't be Christmas unless we played "Rockin'
Around the Christmas Tree." And that really makes me feel so good. And I
believe, you know, the song is just a testament to the writer and the
musicians that played on it because it sounds to me just as good today as it
did when we first recorded it. And, of course, we recorded it, I think, on
three tracks, which is, you know, we've come so far technically today that's
almost laughable. But I think it withstands the test of time.

GROSS: Now you did a lot of rock 'n' roll shows as a teen-ager. You did the
Murray The K Show...

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...at the Brooklyn Paramount.

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: You had your own touring show. What was it like for you to tour with
the package shows, with a lot of rock 'n' roll performers?

Ms. LEE: I loved that. Those are some of my fondest memories of doing The
Dick Clark Caravan of Stars and then my own shows, which I would always have
two or three acts on, and then the Brooklyn Paramount shows, because I am such
a fan anyway, and I just loved meeting all the other entertainers and standing
in the wings and watching them work. And that was a lot of, lot of fun.

GROSS: Who were some of the people who you worked with on those tours?

Ms. LEE: Oh, Chubby Checker, Duane Eddy, Fabian, the Bill Black Combo, Little
Richard, Chuck Berry, Connie Francis, The Beatles--well, that came
later--Elvis, Fats Domino.

GROSS: And being one of the few females on the tour, you know...

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...were you dating yet? Were you old enough to date yet?

Ms. LEE: No. I was not dating yet. I was not dating. Still not dating.

GROSS: So was there somebody to chaperone you, or protect you, so to speak?
I guess chaperoning...

Ms. LEE: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: ...isn't even the right word if you're not even going out on a date.

Ms. LEE: Well, my mom was always with me and my manager. And then I had my
band, six boys, which were like my big brothers, that watched over me. So I
couldn't have gotten in too much trouble even if I'd wanted to.

GROSS: So your mother traveled with you on the rock 'n' roll tours?

Ms. LEE: Mm-hmm. Yes. My mother traveled with me till I married.

GROSS: Was that uncomfortable for you? I know like when my girlfriends and I
went to the Murray The K Show when we were in, I don't know, junior high
school or something, you know, one of the fathers would often drive us to the
Brooklyn Paramount, but gosh, we wouldn't have wanted to be seen with him.
And here you were performing in these shows with your mother traveling with
you.

Ms. LEE: I know. Well, my mom was a good mom. You know, she's not a stage
mother, never was. And she was always kind of always in the background. But
I always knew, you know, if I got out of line and all that she'd be right
there. And she never pressured me or anything, so she was kind of like my
best pal. We had a really good time on the road going to see things and
sightseeing and all, so it was a companion for me.

GROSS: Now you write in your memoir that you were forced to become a
one-dimensional icon named Brenda Lee. You were supposed to devote yourself
to being a star 24 hours a day. What were you supposed to do to be a star in
your daily life?

Ms. LEE: Oh, in the daily life. Well, you know, for so many years I just
ate, breathed and slept Brenda Lee that I had no time for anything else. And
that's what you had to do back then because I was working almost 12 months a
year. I was gone all the time. And that's what my manager and the people
around me wanted me to do.

GROSS: Brenda Lee. Her new memoir is called "Little Miss Dynamite." She'll
be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

Ms. LEE: (Singing) Am I fool number one, or am I fool number two? How many
other girls have been fooled by you? I suppose that the number is far from
being small. And I'll bet that I'm the biggest fool of all. If I had the
chance, I guess I'd do it all again. I'd go down that same old road...

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Brenda Lee. Next
month, she'll be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She has a new
memoir called "Little Miss Dynamite." Lee had her first number one hit, "I'm
Sorry," in 1960 when she was 15. Although she was famous for singing about
love and regret, her mother wouldn't allow her to date until she was 16, and
then she could only double date.

Now you said that the first person you dated was the man that you married.
You were how old when you married?

Ms. LEE: I was 18 when I married.

GROSS: And he was the same age?

Ms. LEE: He was six months older. Yes, he was the same age.

GROSS: Did your parents approve? Did your manager approve?

Ms. LEE: No. I didn't tell anybody. I eloped. Because I knew if I told
anybody, that they would talk me out of it, and they wouldn't let me do it.
And I was so used to doing everything that I was told and my mind-set was such
that I was so used to that, that I probably wouldn't have done it. And I knew
that this was the guy that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, and I
knew if I didn't go ahead and do it this way, that it probably would never
happen.

GROSS: Are you still married?

Ms. LEE: I'm still married 39 years later.

GROSS: Now you had a baby within a year of your marriage. It must have been
very difficult to keep up the schedule you were supposed to keep up and be a
mother.

Ms. LEE: It was very difficult. And I look back at that part of my life
after I wrote the book, I really didn't realize how much that I was gone. And
I had--I don't have it anymore--I had a lot of guilt about that. I say in the
book that after I had my baby girl, Julie, I left town when she was three
weeks old, and when I came back, she was walking. So I'm not very proud of
that.

GROSS: I want to ask you about your manager, Dub Albritten. What was his
importance in your early career?

Ms. LEE: Well, he was so knowledgeable, and he had one vision, and that
vision was me, and that I was his main focus. And he was so important to me
during those early days because, as I said, I was his main focus.

GROSS: Were you close with him?

Ms. LEE: Yes, I was close. He was like a father to me. I loved him dearly.
I don't know that I ever felt, you know, that he really loved me as much as I
loved him. I know he did. Our relationship was real contradictory in many,
many ways.

GROSS: Like what?

Ms. LEE: Well, just like that. Like I never knew if he really cared for me
as much as I cared for him, and then, you know, he would show it. He never
would tell me, but he would show it by his work and his devotion to me in that
area.

GROSS: What do you think about when you see teen-age performers who have
become big stars now, knowing what the experience was like for you when you
were a teen-ager?

Ms. LEE: I just hope they keep their head on straight and they get their
education, because I think education is a real biggie. And I just hope they
don't have too many people pulling at them too many different ways and that
they wind up with the fruits of their labor.

GROSS: Is keeping your head on straight a challenge when you're a young star?

Ms. LEE: Yes. It's a challenge when you're any age, but it's a real
challenge when you're young.

GROSS: Why is it so hard?

Ms. LEE: Well, because, you know, you start believing all these wonderful
things that people are saying about you, and that can go to your head real
quick, and it can change your personality and make you feel that you're maybe
more important than you are, and you just need, you know, to stay who you are.
You don't need to be somebody else. That's why people gravitated towards you
in the first place, is because of who and what you were and are, and so you
don't need to change that.

GROSS: Do you have a favorite recording that you'd like to end with?

Ms. LEE: I love a song that I did called "Johnny One Time."

GROSS: That's a song that Willie Nelson wrote.

Ms. LEE: Well, he didn't write it, but he had the first recording on it.

GROSS: Oh.

Ms. LEE: And I heard it going down the road one day. I heard him singing it.
And I thought, `Boy, I love that song. I'd love to do a cut on that.' And I
was nominated for a Grammy for it, and it was a good record for me.

GROSS: Do you remember what year this was recorded in?

Ms. LEE: I think it was 1969.

GROSS: Well, we have it right here. Let's end with it. Brenda Lee, thank
you so much.

Ms. LEE: Thank you.

GROSS: And Brenda Lee's new autobiography is called "Little Miss Dynamite:
The Life and Times of Brenda Lee."

(Soundbite of "Johnny One Time")

Ms. LEE: (singing) So he told you that you're the dream that he's been
searching for, and he told you that he'd never met anyone like you before.
And I can hear him say to you, `Your lips taste just like sherry wine.' But
did he tell you that he's known as Johnny One Time? Did he tell you that your
heart would soon become another trinket on his bracelet, a broken heart? Did
he tell you that the morning sun would find you patching up your shattered
pride and searching for the missing parts? Did he tell you that the special
love you're saving will disappear in flames, the same like mine? Did he tell
you that he's known as Johnny One Time?

GROSS: Coming up, the history of the bra in America. This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Professor Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau discuss
their book, "Uplift: The Bra In America"
TERRY GROSS, host:

The bra has an amazingly diverse number of ways in which it has supported,
shaped, enhanced and reduced women's bosoms over the decades. In an earlier
era, there was a model with a zip pocket called the money bra(ph) and another
that had an inflatable bladder to help you achieve your desired size. My
guests, Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau, have written a new book about the
history of the bra in America called "Uplift." Beck is a professor of
textiles and clothing at Iowa State University. Gau is one of her former
students and has her own conservation of textiles business. The bra started
to catch on as a healthy alternative to the more restrictive waist-cinching
corset in the late 1890s.

Professor JANE FARRELL-BECK (Co-author, "Uplift: The Bra In America"): The
1890s were a period when various styles of breast supporter were popular with
women who were interested in a somewhat reform style of clothing that had a
high waist. It did not have the waist-cinching aspect of the corset. And
these little supporters that they called short stays or they called strophiums
or breast bust girdles, those were some of the types of garments that were
worn under that style. The really big breakthrough came in the early 1900s
when a very slim form-fitting style called the Princess silhouette caught on.
And at that point, brassieres, so-called at that point, were very, very
popular--started to be very popular with more ordinary women who were not
dress reformers.

GROSS: And the dress reformers wanted to get rid of the very restrictive
undergarments for what reasons?

Ms. COLLEEN GAU (Co-author, "Uplift: The Bra In America"): Well, dress
reformers had several different reasons for wanting to change the
undergarments. Certainly they described many of the problems that women had
with their health. Very, very tight-waisted things kind of tended to push
the innards around in ways that were not normal, restricted breathing, had
all kinds of various problems with the reproductive systems, etc. But in
addition to the tight kinds of garments that the dress reformers were trying
to get rid of, they were also attempting to reduce the problems of having the
heavy weight of clothing. With many, many petticoats, the various very high,
wide skirts that were worn in the mid-19th century could weigh 35 or 40
pounds. And that weight essentially dragged down on the waist and hips. In
addition to that, there was the whole sanitary aspect of dragging your clothes
around on the ground, and particularly in days when they had animals walking
up and down the streets and leaving their droppings in the dirt and so on
would really add to the whole health and sanitation aspect of the clothing.
So there very many reasons. Those are just a few of the reasons that dress
reformers were trying to change the clothing of women in the 19th century.

GROSS: I want to just read an ad. One of the great things about your book is
it has a lot of ads through history for brassieres. And this is an ad from a
catalog for a bra that was sold between the years of 1895 and 1908. And the
ad is titled `Improved Bust Support.' `By its use, the weight of the breast
is removed from the dress waist to the shoulders, giving coolness and dress
comfort, ventilation, a perfect-shaped bust and free and easy movement of the
body. Made with skirt and hose supporter attachments, high or low bust,
catalog free.' During this period at the turn of the century, was there a
size of bosom that was considered fashionable?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: In the early 1900s, it was fashionable to have a fairly
ample bosom, to have not really a division of the breasts. It was sort of
what was sometimes, in current language, called a mono-bosom; although I don't
believe they called it that. But you definitely wanted to have a small waist,
a large bosom, and fairly full hips.

GROSS: And was the bra supposed to add to your size or just give you uplift?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: No, no. It was to give uplift. It was to give comfort.
It was to also hold up the skirts, because as you may note in that particular
advertisement, there are little straps coming down below the bust cups, and
that was to hold the petticoats, to relieve some of that weight, because
doctors really were convinced that supporting clothing from the shoulders was
more healthful than letting it drag down around your waist and hips.

GROSS: And that bra that I read the ad for, I guess this is in the
pre-elastic era, so there's crisscrossed lacing in the front of the bra to
hold the bra together...

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Yes. Yes.

GROSS: ...and I guess to adjust the size of it as well.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: We could say that as far as any extensive elasticity,
anything up to the early 1930s would be pretty much pre-elastic. There might
be small pieces of elastic. Certainly there was elastic around from the
mid-19th century in narrow bands, but, no, extensive amounts of elastic didn't
really exist. And so, yes, they were adapting the corset concept of lacing as
an adjuster to the bust support, to the brassiere.

GROSS: Now in the early bra era, at around the turn of the century, when an
ample bosom was in vogue, what about cleavage? Was the bra supposed to reveal
cleavage?

Ms. GAU: No. Cleavage was really not part of the fashion scene. Evening
dresses might have sort of a low scoop neck, but the idea of push-up and
showing the gap between the breasts was not specifically something that was
sought after, at least in the best of circles.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guests are the authors of "Uplift: The
Bra In America." It's a history of the bra. My guests are Jane Farrell-Beck
and Colleen Gau.

Now you write that from around 1918 to 1924, that the favorite body type was
more flat-chested. And, in fact, the favorite type became flatter and
flatter. How did that change the look of the bras? And I don't know if you
have any idea about why a more flat-chested look became popular.

Ms. GAU: Well, I think that with most of the bra styles, the flat-chested
look came as a result of the fashion silhouette changing, not only in Paris
but in New York, by some of the more influential fashion designers. And they
began to focus on a more tubular or boyish look. And during the early '20s,
late teens, that particular tubular silhouette in the fashion world became
popular. Now it certainly didn't flatter very many figures, and it was a
difficult thing to try and achieve for the more buxom of the clients that were
trying to purchase brassieres. But I think that most of those tended to be
what we would actually think of as breast binders rather than what we might
consider a brassiere, but they were still marketed as brassieres.

GROSS: I want to skip ahead to World War II. Let me read a World War II ad
from your book, "Uplift," on the history of the bra, and the ad is headlined,
`Active Women Need Support.' `To keep your war job energy at its peak, your
supporting garments must be well-constructed and comfortable. This girdle and
brassiere are individually designed for the wearer.' And there's a picture
of, you know, a Rosie the Riveter type worker, you know, hard at work with a
wrench in her hands, you know, wearing one of these bras.

Ms. GAU: Well, definitely throughout the entire 19th century and well into
the 20th century, the idea of a woman's form, particularly by males, was
considered to be weaker, that she needed some kind of support. And the people
that were planning for women to go into the work force, particularly in
heavier laboring types of jobs, felt that it was very, very necessary for
those workers to wear very strong supportive garments, and so that the girdle
that is shown in this particular picture and the brassiere, some of which in
the wartime actually had protective layers of metal or plastic above them to
protect the woman's breasts or bosom area, were used by many manufacturers and
recommended not only by the manufacturers but by people that were in the
industry.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: May I just add that, in fact, because these women were
standing for long periods of time, they may have benefited a little bit from
the back support that a high-rise girdle, frequently Panty Girdle, and a
brassiere could provide. Actually in war plants, doctors and nurses who
worked there would often recommend to women to get some kind of support; not
very different from the sorts of back supports we see by people working in
warehouse-type retail outlets today.

GROSS: I know when I was growing up in the '50s and '60s, watching a lot of
movies and many of those movies were from the '50s, I thought, `Wow, women in
Hollywood really had large breasts, you know. No one I know seems to have
breasts quite that large.' And then, of course, you get older and you read
about the Bullet Bra, which is like this big, padded bra that a lot of women
in Hollywood during that era had to wear. What are some of the interesting
things you learned about the big, pointy breast look of part of the '50s?

Ms. GAU: Well, there are so many funny stories to tell it's hard to know
where to start. But certainly the designers just postwar and into the early
parts of the '50s really did put an emphasis on the separated breast and the
very torpedo-like breasts. And a lot of that was achieved through stitching
of the cups in various types of circular stitches that were called variously
whirlpool(ph) and circular form and a lot of different kinds of stitching that
achieved that very pointed look. But it was, again, a function of the fashion
silhouette of the time. The postwar period allowed for fabric to be used in
higher quantities, so that full skirts could be available and crinolines could
be put underneath them, and the emphasis on the waist cinched in and the very
pointed breast was very much popular as a fashion silhouette.

GROSS: Whose brainchild was the training bra? Why don't you describe what a
training bra is?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: The training bra in our modern parlance refers to a bra
for a very young girl, usually a pre-teen. We're not sure what they're
training for, but the concept of a brassiere for a quite young woman goes back
to the 19-teens. In fact, the flappers themselves go back to the 19-teens.
They were teen-agers at that time. The term seems to have grown up with those
young women. But from that point on, a teen market was very important.
Increasingly these girls were having jobs, earning their own spending money,
and both manufacturers and retailers were very eager to court their business.
In fact, some companies actually fully specialized. Teencharm,
Heaventeen(ph), Holly Bra--those all really targeted the teen-ager. And, in
fact, there was a tendency for young women to mature sooner. In the '50s they
were adopting lipstick and high heels in their mid- to young teens, and so
along with this went the concept of a small bra, a bra with very slight
contouring.

GROSS: My guests are Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau, authors of "Uplift:
The Bra in America." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guests are Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau, authors of a new book
about the history of the bra in America called "Uplift."

Do you remember, I forget which Woody Allen movie it is, but it's like a
Sunday morning and he's reading The New York Times magazine section with this
real lascivious look on his face. And it turns out what he's looking at is
the ads for women's underwear. And that reminds me that, you know, it seems
like throughout the history of the bra that there have been ads picturing
women wearing bras in publications that wouldn't otherwise be showing women in
their undergarments. And that's always actually kind of surprised me that
even in very conservative climates that it's been OK to show women in their
underwear in advertisements.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: You will notice, however, that many times, particularly
up through perhaps the late 1940s, often there would be sketches of women or
it would be the woman's pose turned away from the viewer somewhat or her eyes
dropped, sort of detaching herself from the viewer that would be acceptable.
One of the great accomplishments of the Maidenform campaign, which started in
1949 and ran through the late 1960s, was to make it OK to show women in sort
of fantasy situations with bra above and full apparel below.

GROSS: The campaign you're talking about is like the `I dreamed I...'

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: The Dream campaign.

Ms. GAU: The Dream campaign.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Thank you, yes.

GROSS: Do you remember some of the examples, what the woman was dreaming she
was doing while wearing her Maidenform bra?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: I dreamed I was a mermaid. I dreamed I won the
election, which I thought was quite interesting.

GROSS: So it would be like, `I dreamed I won the election...'

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: And 195...

GROSS: `...in my Maidenform bra.'

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Form bra; exactly.

Ms. GAU: Oh, yes.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Exactly. I dreamed I went to Paris in my Maidenform bra.
I dreamed...

Ms. GAU: I went...

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: I rode a streetcar in my Maidenform bra.

Ms. GAU: I think the first one was I dreamed I went shopping in my Maidenform
bra, and that theme was actually repeated more than once throughout the
campaign with different models. Shopping was very big.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: And the business corresponding set of advertisements
would say: I dreamed I became president of the store in my Maidenform bra. I
dreamed I sold a million dollars' worth of brassieres of my Maidenform bras.

GROSS: Were you able to find out who developed the sizing system of the A cup
and the AA cup, etc.?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Yes.

GROSS: Colleen.

Ms. GAU: Yes. That was fairly difficult to find, but we've discovered that
the Camp Company that actually dealt primarily with prostheses for mastectomy
patients came up with the letter system A, B, C and D to help make prostheses
that would fit particular women's breasts as a match, and that was quite
quickly taken on in other companies. I believe that the year for that was
1931.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: I think both Form Fit and Warners were rather early off
the mark in modifying their cup sizes, but it was Camp that gave the labels,
A, B, C and D, and then, of course, led to lots of jokes about it. For
example, Ruth Cabanas(ph), a brassiere designer, referred to the sizes as
`nubbins, snubbins, droopers and superdroopers.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: When did black bras start becoming available?

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: 1930s, but gained greater popularity particularly in the
postwar era, partly because it was a matter of something that could be worn
only with certain types of clothing. And so as people were more affluent,
they could have a wardrobe of brassieres that not only included different
shapings, but different colors, different materials and even different prints
by the late 1950s and certainly riotous colors in the 1960s.

Ms. GAU: I think, too, Terry, that black was often associated with eroticism
or being more sexy. And I think that may have come as a result of the French
introduction of black and lacy undergarments, many of which were brought home
after the Second World War by the various troops that were over there. And so
the eroticism aspect of underwear has always been there at one point or
another.

GROSS: What do you think the impact of Victoria's Secret has been on bras, on
the whole bra industry?

Ms. GAU: I could say that it's been fairly profound, I would say. It's
brought the undergarments and brassieres and underpants particularly right
onto the prime-time television screen in the home of every place in America
and, indeed, the world. It's on the Internet, etc. And I think that it's
really taken the brassiere and underclothing to a complete new level. Their
marketing campaign, I think, has had a terrific amount of strategy and I think
it succeeded very admirably.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you both very much for talking with us about the
history of the bra. Thank you.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Thank you.

Ms. GAU: Well, we're delighted that you liked our book and we're just
thrilled that this is going to be on, Terry.

Prof. FARRELL-BECK: Thank you, indeed, for including us in your list of
interviewees.

Ms. GAU: Absolutely.

GROSS: Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau are the authors of "Uplift: The Bra
in America."

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite of music; credits)

GROSS: On the next FRESH AIR, Michael Kinsley tells us what he's learned
about Web publishing. This month he announced that he's stepping down as
editor of the online magazine Slate. In December he disclosed that he had
Parkinson's disease.

I'm Terry Gross. Join us for the next FRESH AIR.
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